Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello,
I had an "Arborist" stop over and we were talking about different types of wood used in instrument making. I asked about what is availible here in Minnesota and he brought up a species of Ironwood that we have . He tells me that this wood was used for bearings in the "old days" for farm equipment! it is apparently very hard! also used for old sleigh runners and tool handles. It grows only to about a 8-10inch diameter. He has a few "logs" that he is going to let me have to mess around with.

My question is, is there a point where wood would be too hard to use for instruments? What should I consider with this if I was thinking about using it for a neck or fretboards? He stated the grain (or lack of) is similar to Ebony. Now, I have not seen this yet so I can't tell you much about it until he brings it to me.

Anyone know anything about this particular wood?

When researching different alternatives to the "standard" woods used what should one consider and be concerned about?

Thank you so much!

-Rj

I don't know that a wood would be to hard to use, but there is certainly a point at which wood gets hard enough to be a real pain to cut and sand. Expect to dull your saw blades quickly and wear out your arm sanding if the stuff is really hard. As far as using the wood for a neck, you might want to consider the weight of the wood. I don't know anything about ironwood, but a lot of the harder woods are pretty dang heavy, and heaviness is probably not a good quality in a neck. Not really an issue for fretboards or bridges though. Down here in Louisiana, I've been using a good bit of crepe myrtle for bracing in boats over the past couple years. That stuff is very hard, and will dull a new table saw blade in no time.
Keep us posted and good luck with the wood!

Well, if he is indeed an "arborist" then he can easily provide you the botanical name for the tree and with that all will be revealed. This knowledge is part of arborist training, education and certification.

With that information would that tell a person more about the "properties" of the wood?? I apologize, I don't understand. Are trees named different to a certain "classification" and some classifications are not used for certain things?

He did tell me the name but to me it didn't mean anything at the time!! but I will check with him

Trees are named for the parent genus or family species and normally for or by the person that identified a particular sub species variant. Knowing the botanical name gives access to published documentation on the tree. Many sub species of the same genus have different physical characteristic variants. So knowing the true botanical name of a wood allows you access to published and documented information that will give you the information need on a given wood. An Oak is an Oak but not all oaks are the same. Also a lot of different species of wood have been called Ironwood over the years. Ironwood is not even really a common name for one species, but rather a colloquial name for woods of very high density and weight in a given area.

I wonder if he might be referring to Desert Ironwood (Olneya tesota) - comes from southern Arizona, southern California, and parts of New Mexico. It doesn't grow very big and often has lots of voids - so getting a good solid piece is very rare. I lucked out on a couple boards of it that were in good shape. It is by far and away the densest stuff I have ever encountered but it does have a very nice ring to it and is incredibly stable. I don't think it is quite up there with the best of the tonewoods in terms of taptone - but then again, Walnut usually sounds like wet cardboard and there are some fantastic guitars made out of the stuff -- so I have high hopes for it if paired with the correct soundboard. In terms of looks, I have yet to see anything look as cool as this stuff does.

Here are a couple pictures of one of the sets I've resawed.

--
Simon

RJ,

Sounds like you are going to try to build a guitar (or guitars) from local wood. Great!

It is true that there is not a lot of dark wood in North America (above the Mason Dixon Line anyway), and of the dark species there's not much that has the perfect qualities for fingerboards that both look traditional and are hard enough to resist wear. An all-Minnesota instrument might have an Osage Orange fingerboard, or Black Walnut (though some of it it pretty soft), or Birch or Hard Maple. Black Walnut is sometimes used as a fingerboard, but you may want to push a fingernail into any candidate board to see if it is some of the harder Walnut. It's more likely you'll end up with a light colored wood for a fingerboard. Hard Maple has close pores, wears very well, but the fingerboard will look dirty and grimy pretty quickly.

Minnesota grown back and sides could be made from White Oak, Yellow Birch, Soft or Hard Maple, or Hickory to name a few. The coolest back and side sets I have seen that came from Minnesota are the curly White (Burr) Oak sets that Grant Goltz has. Knock your eyes out cool. He also has White Spruce soundboards from Minnesota. I know there are Shagbark Hickories growing in southern Minnesota, and Tim McKnight has successfully used that for back and sides. No idea if it grows big enough in Minnesota for a 2-piece back, though.

If you are willing to make a guitar with a 3-piece or 4-piece back, your options will broaden. There is a company (Timeless Timber, in Ashland WI) that salvages logs from Lake Superior. They may have grown in Minnesota - I doubt there's any way to know for sure though.

"Ironwood" is a generic term used around the world to describe hard wood. In Minnesota, it might refer to Hornbeam.

Let us know a little more about the project, and what you find for the "Ironwood" species name.

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Wow, that set looks great! really gives any rosewood a run for its money.

_________________
Build log

I suspect what your friend has is Blue Beech, also called Ironwood, Musclewood and American Horbeam. I have used it for tool handles only, and I turned it when it was relatively green and had no problems. I can see that it might make good bridgeplates, although I haven't tried it. Maybe even possibly a bridge,if you don't mind the color,( creamy white). As for a neck or a fretboard, I would only say that it needes to be seasoned carefully with ample drying time to prevent unpleasant surprises later on. You will also find it much harder to carve than a traditional Mahogony neck, so I think I would the fretboard idea is probably more do-able.

I forgot to mention, the scientific name is: Carpinus Carolinana.

Carpinus Carolinana is American Hornbeam, also called Bluebeech and Ironwood. I've turned a bit of it and it takes a while to season, very prone to twisting and spliting while drying. I used to turn boxes with it and had to turn it in stages to keep it from splitting. Even with careful handling a finished container would split a year later. Like any fine grained hardwood it should be well seasoned before building anything with it.

I don't know about its sonic characteristics but it might make an interesting bridge or fingerboard material.

Hey neighbor,

Good question.

I used to have one in my front yard. EXTREMELY hard, heavy wood.

The tree is known locally as an Ironwood. It's common name is the Hophornbeam and the scientific name is Ostrya Virginiana.

Can't help you on its tonal characteristics.

Dave

Thanks all for the info!!

Sounds like it may be better to use for jigs or tools!

Maybe I will get a chunk and use it someday for a fretboard!

Thanks again

-Rick

Dave, what did you do with the one in your yard?

Rick, I may have missed it, but I don't see where you posted the actual botanical name of the wood you have as provided by the supplying "arborist" as opposed to the arborist. Without that it's all speculation in this thread. Sometimes "close" is just good enough.

Rick,
It is still standing.

We moved.

Larry,
likely possibility for specifics in this area;
Hophornbeam: another common name
Ostrya Virginiana: botanical name

Dave

I built a guitar made from "texas ebony" which I hear is very similar to ironwood. It is very very dense and difficult to work, but makes a fantastic sounding instrument and is very beautiful too. Make sure you keep your sharpening tools handy!

Looks quite nice! I remember Alan Carruth build one with the stuff too.
What are the bindings and bridge? My guess padauk 70%, bloodwood 30%

_________________
Build log

Yep, exactly. Padauk bridge (nice and light) and bloodwood bindings.