Official Luthiers Forum!

Jig it or wing it?
This is my first thread so you might call me a newbie OLFer.
My world is electric guitars for the past 20 years full time ,repairs and mods before that.
My question has to do with jigs to standardize production of like parts.
Personally I'm a jig guy that ends up winging it alot due to too many options to list here, but methods vary.

To jig or not to jig ,that is the question.Whether tis nobler to wing it or jig up the wazoo for every process that you can. For you, do jigs take the fun out of it or put it back in?
Opinions please.

Thanks ,Brett

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How long is that in luthyears?

Well as the old joke goes: "How many luthiers does it take to change a light bulb? Just one but they have to make a jig first."

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I jig for those parts that have to be perfect everytime !
I do not for the ones I like to make just to keep in touch with the woods and hand tools.
Mike

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Mike Collins

It does seem to me in recent years that builders have become jig obsessed, making jigs for the most simple jobs. OK, if you are a small production shop making say a dozen or more guitars a years I can see the sense, but for the small guy doing three or four, I think it's all got out of hand. For instance, cutting the tail graft mortice, it takes ten minutes tops with a steel rule a marking knife and a chisel. By the time you've got the jig out, adjusted it for size, found the router, and the correct bit and guide, got the router set up, well I've cut mine glued the graft in and are having a cup of tea!

All right I like working with hand tools, so I'm a bit biased, and yes I do use jigs for some processes, like routing the pocket for my neck extension.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I'm with Colin.

Somehow I gain great enjoyment out of doing & learning to do accurate work without the aid of jigs; the only time I use jigs is when I rout the truss rod channel and the saddle slots. Honestly.

Jigs:
Repeatability, it's a no brainer for production work.
Yes, it seems there is an obsession with turning to a jig for everything and anything. Hardly makes sense for a small guy building a handful of guitars, it may be better to learn how to use tools to make instruments rather than fixtures…
No jigs (or very few):
Allows creativity, not locked in by a specific shape or process. Also the mind and hand make decisions in real time. It's not necessarily more time-consuming, it depends on the skill and dedication level. Much more pleasurable for some, perhaps a bore for others…
Different paradigms and economical constraints. Some guys build one instrument and are already thinking of going full-production by the following year. Some others would be content building a few instruments/year mostly by hand in a generally quiet shop.
My favourite Kunstlerism:
"The 20th century is over, we don't need to be modern anymore."

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

There are so many ways of looking at that question. Repeatability, precision, flexibility, effeciency, economics, and enjoyment. I think enjoyment should be near the top of anyone's list. For hobbiests, clearly it's about enjoying the work so do it in a way that is most fun for you. For pros, we spend too much of our lives doing this not to work in a manner that we enjoy, whichever that is. Clearly great guitars can be made either way but I believe that people are more likely to build a better instrument when they enjoy the process.

That said, I think it's a mistake to go overboard on jigs too quickly. I'm pretty jigged up in my neck building process and getting ready to invest in some CNC'd patterns. But I first talked to the CNC guys more than 2 years ago and have been mulling over the process for longer than that. I've come up with a system that can be repeatable with precision without locking me into much of anything. I don't want an investment in jigs and tooling to keep me from changing and innovating in the future.

But I'm still doing the final shaping, especially the heel, by hand because it's fun and it would be a much larger investment in time, money, and space to get dialed in to something that would shape my heels.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Well I must admit do like jigs! Mainly simple things that help smooth out little glitches in the flow of the building process. I also like them for tasks where precision is critical like setting the angle of the upper bout and neck angle, slotting the saddle and fingerboard, aligning the fingerboard etc.
The jigs don’t always tell the truth though, and I agree with Kent, it’s nice to have done all those tasks freehand and evolve into jigs so you will more easily see a red flag when double-checking things.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

If you feel can do a job better with a specialized tool or jig, you should have one. Or if it's a job you can do just as well by hand but faster and reliably with a jig, consider how much time or money you would need to invest in the jig against how many times you foresee using it, how much time it will save per piece, etc. - Basically figure how long it may take to pay for itself.

That's the sensible way of looking at it, though if any of us were sensible we never would have gotten in to this business. In the real world people enjoy different things, and tools and jigs that may not be entirely sensible will often be taken as "pet projects". Some enjoy the romance of building freehand with nothing more than simple hand tools, some are passionate about riddles and challenges of tool design and construction. Most are somewhere in between, and if you can balance those interests against a bit of business sense in deciding whether to jig or not, you may actually be able to make a living at it and get a bit of enjoyment here and there at the same time.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I was to impatient to make jigs first and just dove in head first to what at the time seemed like an empty pool.......

Looking back I wish that I have made more jigs and I plan on catching up on jig making this fall.

Hobby do what one wants, it is a night and weekend deal mostly and no pressure to get things out. One can take as long as want and redo all need to do. Pro shops have different priority as has been stated. Some still like certain parts of the process "freehand" and then build jigs for other things. The ones I have worked at were even different. One putting out 6-10 guitars a week had jig and fixture for every aspect of the build, from making back grafts in batches, to braces and everything else. The other was like a lot of smaller shops putting out 15-30 or few more a year. There are jigs for lots of things, and as a problems or ideas come up with the builds make jigs and fixtures that would make process faster and easier.

I keep saying in a pro shop for most part time is money and money is what pays the bills so different prioritys.

Boss and guys in other shop loved and could do every aspect of building with or without jigs, and they love the work doing both, but still have to get out the product, so the way they/we look at building is from a different than from the view of hobby shop. For the most part comparing a pro shop to he hobby shop is like comparing apples and oranges (not always, but would suggest mostly). It is even different in pro shops but not as much, in how many guitars and what their production schedule is like, and what they personally want to do.

I have seen jigs made as builds are going on due to some aspect of a build not "normal" to that shop. Sometimes this could take several minutes to a day project. Bill always (or in vast amount of times) has made jigs/fixtures/cauls even on the fly that could be used again and as part of a design aspect he is doing. He is always interested in what he can do to make the build great and do so in least amount of time. I also know at times builders "need" or take a break from production on a few (very few) and will make a guitar "just for me for once" they may do a complete different design or type of build and then make jigs for those builds. Still in the end t still in the end those guitars seem to make it to market and sold. The ones I have seen in this catagory have been eye candy with great voices and sell at really great prices and after all for them it is money and they can do another one.

Bottom line what is your level as a builder and what are you looking to do in the end?

So you see it a decision on your part. Do you want dimensional repeatability and speed or do you build for the pleasure of working the wood?? Personally I fall in the middle of this argument but only because I have a limited amount of building time each day and I have a tight build schedule so I fixture up for bridges, freeboards and few other things.

From Bruce Sexauer. I'm mostly in agreement.

http://www.sexauerluthier.com/consortiu ... sophy.html

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Thanks for the link Howard - very well put!

Jigs take the fun out of it. I find no satisfaction in using a jig when I can usually do the task by hand quicker than I can find the jig and get it set up.

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John Ressler

I can appreciate his philosophy as one for himself, but am mostly in disagreement.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

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I'm mostly in agreement with Bruce as well.

Jig when necessary, otherwise, don't. I would prefer to jig at parties if I could jig.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

That article, while an interesting read, asserts a certain level of authority, yet seems to lack any empirical or philosophical arguments for the rejection of jigs / automation etc. I don't know the builder so I'm not commenting on his own ability nor indeed his authority on this topic, but the article as a standalone lacks any persuasiveness.

I use jigs wherever possible in building. I get a tight fitting x-brace in a matter of minutes, and equally snug bridge plate, consistent bridges, tapered fretboard, end graft and can locate and glue braces very efficiently thanks to a range of jigs. The more time I take out of steps that are of no inherent benefit to the overall tone and appearance of the instrument, the more time I can spend on steps that are.

I am nothing but in awe at those who build exceptional instruments with little more than chisels, planes and handsaws, yet at the same time I am an avid user of jigs myself and see it as a balance between the two if I were to do this full time. There is no right way or wrong way and I would assume everyone who builds instruments does so because they enjoy it. To suggest that someone that makes extensive use of jigs or automation derives less satisfaction seems a bit presumptuous on the part of the hand tool advocate.

By this same token, imagine the outrage if a proponent of automation/CNC/jigging (say a Taylor, Olson or C.Fox era Fox) said there was no place for hand tools in modern lutherie!

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Richard
http://www.guitarmaker.com