Official Luthiers Forum!

Well Mike here is another thread
The guitar making business is just fine however making guitars does not by itself make money, you have too sell them as well.
That has been a little more difficult as of late however I still have little backlog but it does seem tougher these days. Just the ups and downs of our economy which is why I was happy when my old employer called and asked me for some temporary help. I have not given up on making guitars as a means of support and am quite looking forward to getting back in the shop soon.
I do have a couple of marketing ideas that I will be putting into action soon. I won't share them now because I wouldn't want to lead anyone down an untested path.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Well that seems to have gone nowhere. I was hoping to spark some comments on the current state of the guitar market. Anyone else seeing a slowdown in the guitar buying public? I'm not terribly worried as most of my sales seem to come in the winter months but it does seem like less people are looking lately.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Well Johnny! I've noticed here in the SoCal the freeways are a lot less crowded on sundays! Gas is eating a lot of peoples discretionary income I guess!

Many of the "hobbies", take a hit first when the economy cycles downward. Most of everybody's business, of the pro luthiers, is for amateurs.

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I'm not 'in the biz' yet, but some of my larger clients tell me American sales are down but European sales are stable or up. Taylor reduced production within the last year (forget exact timing) by something in the 15% range which seems pretty huge to me.

How that trickles down is hard to tell, but from the long view they're selling essentially the same product (high-priced guitars) that 'we' are. I'd be interested in seeing the change in their production graphed next to Saga or Godin's lower-end sales to see if there's any correlation.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

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John I think it is right now that some of the desposible income folks may have or had is a little down. May have it, but holding on until things turn around some. This like other times will pass. Those who decided to hang with it and have a great product like yours will be ok in the long run. I will start saying this is a cycle, and not perm. We go through these times and then bounce back. Selling builds will be like it has been, if have the brand and product when things settle out, those folks will be back to a wait list and hoping for a week or two lack time. You and some others will be right there. Look at sales on ebay even. The real highend prices are going down and maybe to a norm price rather than inflated price. I know (wife in real estate as are good friends) many homes were at inflated prices for awhile because of the market, but some of the down turn on the non default type finance is due to folks still in inflated mind set. Those selling are adjusting to where prices in norm market or raise on prices by percent and doing ok. The market will again turn up, prices will again go up and to an inflated price and then there will be another halt. As this forum policy (right) I won't make the political take, but to say there are no good guys or bad guys in this as parties, just being politicans and not working for us and only for the respective parties. Once this season is over, they will move on. I think pay them min wage until they decide to work and fix things rather than 180K to take vacations and argue all the time.


My former business is doing ok, but down also and not dependent on individuals but companies from large to small. Same thing. Businesses are holding back some on investigations, but with what my speciality is, folks try to cheat the system some. But that said, some are looking at paying out rather than investigations as they know can settle for less money than norm as folks need the money. There have been times when employed 20 investigators and they couldn't keep up and working 80 hour weeks. Then there came these cycles and they were all at the office playing cards or I was sending them home. Sucks, but way it is.

I know some builders and mostly the one or two person shop are seeking income from various sources to assist until things turn around again. Their are some who will not be affected as much as others, but all will see some let down for a little while. It is a cycle that occurs on occasion and folks hang on to their money a little more or stop purchasing "fun things" and wait it out making sure they will have it at the end of the cycle or emergency should it last longer than norm. If I had to depend on this for all income, I would be seeking more repair work in local market

Just as an aside Billy, try living in Europe, gas (or as we call it petrol) is $8.70 per US gallon, we buy it in litres though at about $2.30 /ltr.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

john,

i'm glad that you still have another steady source of income. i'm only a hobby builder so i'm largely immune to the issue you're facing. i'm also canadian, which gives me a few more months of insulation before our economy starts to reflect the USA crunch in a greater way.

but here's another perspective that i don't think i've ever heard discussed on the forum. during the 15 years that i've been reading acoustic guitar magazine and following the industry, it seems to me that the high end guitar market (factory and hand built) has absolutely exploded. each issue of the magazine seems to be sporting ads by a builder i've never heard of before. and along with all the extra product, the increase in prices has far exceeded inflation - and by 'far' i mean in a crazy way. in the end, i'm okay with guitar makers getting all of that disposable income, but don't really think that what's been going on the last decade is sustainable.

from north of the border, the US economy has appeared to be a house of cards for quite some time. so given all the guitars, how many of them are being sold for $5K-plus, and the economic slow down/correction, i hope that other builders also have back up plans because i think that business in the coming decade will not be nearly as strong as the previous one.

sorry for my 'cup-half-empty' perspective. that's just the way i see it. sometimes people ask if i ever dream of my hobby becoming my living. i always tell them that if i had started ten years sooner it might have been an option - but i don't see a future in it if i only start at this point.

all that said, john, i love the way your guitars look and i imagine they sound even better. i hope your advertising plans work out in a way that allows you enough guitar income to continue pursuing your passion.

phil

Guitar making is a business?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Phil hit the nail on the head!
There is a glut of makers.

I love Howards reply !!
but he has found his own place in the guitamaking universe !

I'm fortunate to have enough work for a few years ahead !
But it did not happen overnight.
Hard work and patience -plus i do not make copies!
Not even of famous classical makers!

I think players can find a dreadnaught anywhere by any one!
Same with all of Martins shapes.
So design, and a forward vision will probably help some of us to stay afloat-while others may become disallusioned and quit.

Keep plugging away -get your guitars into players hands-and advertise if you can afford it!

Mike

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Mike Collins

My workhshop is housed inside a very large music shop in the uk, and the whole chain went under in April. Nightmare!
Luckily the particular shop where i'm situated has been bought and is re-energised, but it was pretty horrible for a while. Some of the guys in the other shops were turfed out on their ear - stone cold out of the blue.


I've definately noticed a slow down in work, but i've been upping my efforts, and using the free time to work on my acoustic building projects and making the website more attractive.

Signs are that the whole thing is going to be slow for a couple of years, which I can easily handle as it was so busy it was hard to keep up...maybe i can even take an occasional day off!

good luck to everyone....and hang on in there

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www.theguitarrepairworkshop.com

Colin, Europe is very different. Here in most of the US, driving is a necessity, not a choice. As Kunstler is fond to say, the US has a rail system the Bulgarians would be ashamed of… Outside of some large cities like NYC, Boston or SF there is little to no public transportation. There is no clustering in villages as in EU, single houses are really spread apart and far from any commerce center. Gas prices directly affect people here, especially in poor rural areas where work can be 25 miles and more away from home. Winter heating is another issue… I am not too optimistic for the future as cheap gas prices will not come back. My hope is that politically there will be a willingness to address both energy and urbanisation issues ASAP and reverse the last 60 years trend… I'm not holding my breath.
On the other hand I have a friend who restores pianos and he never had as much work, except during the last recession in the '80s. It seems in recessions, people tend to invest in objects with a "real" value. So perhaps in the long run "handmade" guitars have a chance not to be hit too hard.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

All markets run in cycles. But....

There are a sufficient number of "well off" and "rich" people who are guitar players of various skill levels (factoring out for the moment those who love their credit cards). There will always be a sufficient number of buyers to sop up all the supply we can put into the market. Our combined output is not even a rounding error on the total world wide output of guitars.

When you only make 15 guitars or less per year there is always a market. The trick is in finding it.

Luthiers are pretty miserable marketers, there is a ton of opportunity for all of us if we simply sharpen up. Maybe for the moment much of the low hanging fruit is gone, but I am sure the market is still there. It is up to us to find it.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

In terms of pricing, we build dirt cheap instruments. Even the really, really expensive ones are cheap. Go price out a good quality, middle of the line, professional orchestral instrument (bowed, violin or similar) and be prepared for a little sticker shock. Material costs are often lower (although i've see absurdly inflated tonewood prices for some Violin sets), hours needed to build are likely the same, I'd wager, but the price is significantly higher. Guitarists call 1000 dollar guitars 'expensive'.

In terms of economic slowdown, I don't get the impression folks here (NL) are terribly worried about it, and the ever weaker dollar does make buying from the US a very attractive proposition.

How true… But how difficult it is to be both the artisan and the marketeer…


Absolutely.
Only difference is this: musicians in an orchestra or small chamber music ensemble really play acoustic. The gap between, say, a great sounding cello and a lemon is a matter of life and death.
The great, great majority of acoustic guitarists have to play amplified, and there the difference in tone between a $12.000 and a $1000 guitar is mostly irrelevant, money better be spent on the best setup and PU/preamp/amplifier combo to be found. Besides, a less responsive guitar is often easier to amplify.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

True enough, but for our purposes it really isn't that hard, it just takes a willingness and a little creativity (something most guitar makers know have in abundance). I am in the same boat, so this isn't critisism as much as observation. You go to a few shows, run a few ads, print a few t-shirts, cook up a medicore web site, and THAT is the marketing program.

With less than $100 invested in books from Amazon, a little budget, and some elbow grease I think you could be at the top of the game in terms of luthier marketing.

There are a few guys who I think are doing a decent job marketing, but I think the vast majority of us could really build our business by breaking out of this rut of the obvious tactics.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Mattia makes a very good point. With left and right coasts, we in the US are sometimes oblivious to foreign markets. Stronger and wiser marketing skills combined with targeting new markets just might be able to turn the current 'lemon-like' economy in the US into lemonade for builders of custom instruments.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC