Official Luthiers Forum!

Hesh,
The Hitachi is a good saw. You will have to live with the fence that comes with the saw. I didn't see any OEM fences that will attach to that saw to make it a superior performer. The set up of the saw is difficult because of the access to the trunnion's bolts. If you make sure that the blade runs parallel to the miter slot and that the fence is also parallel to the blade, it will perform as you expect. (safely, reliably and accurately) A high end (under 1K USD) table saw is also a good choice. the "dust collection" issue aside. I would say that with a contractor's saw at 1k you would get more for your money than the Hitachi. My current Delta contractor's saw has a canvas bag out-fitted with a vacuum port at the bottom that acts as dust collection. My wife, the queen, made it because she does not like wood dust on her pots while she is throwing them. (yes I have learned to duck...) Later I found the same thing in Woodworkers Supply catalog (with snaps not velcro) My advice is buy the best you can afford, after you have digested the advice given here by all these learned people.

[respectful tone]
WOW! What a group!
[/respectful tone]

Robert

[quote="hblair"]hesh, this is the saw you want. it has all of the features you claim are important to YOU. i will shut up now.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Hy ... -Saw/G0478[/quote
Agreed. Nice saw for the money.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Hesh, I see that Rockler now has a Delta table saw on for $100 off plus a $50 mail in rebate. Just got my flyer today.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

You just need to disable the safety circuit, as you need to do if you are cutting wet wood too.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100642039&categoryID=529793

I was using my dinky 7 1/2 Craftsman till I burned it up. Then, a friend brought over his Portable Ryobi he bought at Home Depot & I thought it was great...But then, I'm not that well-read on table saws or for that matter, ahem...the safety of them... ! Doing a remodel on my shop and adjacent room. I was doing kind of a complex Cedar ceiling w/ all kinds of off-cuts. I learned real quick about how to use one & it did the job flawlessly. Not bad for only $249.

In this process, I needed to buy more power tools and found that I could get decent tools that were reconditioned back to factory specs & save a few dollars w/o compromising quality! Hence Hesh, the link to the Recon Rigid...

Jim buddy in my way of thinking the real advantage to the SawStop is the safety technology so disabling it to be able to use the blades that we use in Lutherie makes it just another saw - but a $2K saw for the contractor's model. With this said it is not IMHO a good buy. But thanks for your help my friend.

Rich thanks for the link and I want to get a Rigid 3660 or 3650 (not sure of the difference they seem to be the same price).

I am concerned about buying a reconditioned tool because since I am new to this I don't really know what to expect and I would also hate to get someone else's dust and boogers in my new shop.....

Right now my problem is that the Borg is only listing the 3660 and 3650 as in-store pick-up only even though the reconditioned model can be purchased on line and delivered to me. They say that they are out of stock for Internet orders...... I drive a Honda and can't transport this thing let alone lift nearly 300 pounds myself.

So I just emailed HD and asked them how I get a new one delivered.

FWIW I checked out the Hitachi in person at Lowes today and didn't like it. It does have a 3hp motor which sets it apart from the competition and it is $100 less than the Rigid. But the fence system sucks and the back of the fence easily flexed around 1/4 inch. Although I know nothing about table saws I am Six Sigma trained and understand quality when I see it and the Hitachi just seemed like a light weight saw with some less then great QC. I had high hopes for the Hitachi because this week I am ordering 100+ more 2 X 4s, a couple of doors and a bunch of drywall from Lowes and thought that I could have them deliver the saw at the same time so that the $79 delivery ding gets amortized over more stuff.

i couldnt tell you how they are claiming 3hp from 110v motor, but i guarantee its not the same 3hp that the higher grade saws are rated at. dont be fooled.

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sweat the small stuff.

Six Sigma?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Thats a fancy name for lots of QC paperwork!

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Jeremy Vonk

Ah Six Sigma........ Well Six Sigma is a highly structured methodology for improving quality by studying processes and identifying defects and their causes using the scientific method, statistical analysis, customer satisfaction, and more.

For over 2 decades now some of the most notable companies in our world have embraced Six Sigma and put programs into place. This is an enormous financial commitment because the training of the employees can in some cases be the equivalent of sending an employee to a university in terms of cost, time, and dedication.

Notably when an organization commits to Six Sigma management at the highest level is making a commitment to reduce defects (a defect is a flaw in a process or product) to no more then 3.4 defects per 1,000,000 operations.

If it is so expensive to implement what is the attraction for companies to embrace Six Sigma - cost savings, improved customer satisfaction, reduction in potential liability from products that may injure someone, and a level of prestige too that the organization has committed to be the very best that they can be at ALL levels of the organization.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Six Sigma:

Six Sigma was originally developed as a set of practices designed to improve manufacturing processes and eliminate defects, but its application was subsequently extended to other types of business processes as well.[2] In Six Sigma, a defect is defined as anything that could lead to customer dissatisfaction.[1]

The particulars of the methodology were first formulated by Bill Smith at Motorola in 1986.[3] Six Sigma was heavily inspired by six preceding decades of quality improvement methodologies such as quality control, TQM, and Zero Defects, based on the work of pioneers such as Shewhart, Deming, Juran, Ishikawa, Taguchi and others.

Like its predecessors, Six Sigma asserts that –

* Continuous efforts to achieve stable and predictable process results (i.e. reduce process variation) are of vital importance to business success.
* Manufacturing and business processes have characteristics that can be measured, analyzed, improved and controlled.
* Achieving sustained quality improvement requires commitment from the entire organization, particularly from top-level management.

Features that set Six Sigma apart from previous quality improvement initiatives include –

* A clear focus on achieving measurable and quantifiable financial returns from any Six Sigma project.[1]
* An increased emphasis on strong and passionate management leadership and support.[1]
* A special infrastructure of "Champions," "Master Black Belts," "Black Belts," etc. to lead and implement the Six Sigma approach.[1]
* A clear commitment to making decisions on the basis of verifiable data, rather than assumptions and guesswork.[1]

The term "Six Sigma" is derived from a field of statistics known as process capability studies. Originally, it referred to the ability of manufacturing processes to produce a very high proportion of output within specification. Processes that operate with "six sigma quality" over the short term are assumed to produce long-term defect levels below 3.4 defects per million opportunities (DPMO).[4][5] Six Sigma's implicit goal is to improve all processes to that level of quality or better.

Six Sigma is a registered service mark and trademark of Motorola, Inc.[6] Motorola has reported over US$17 billion in savings[7] from Six Sigma as of 2006.

Other early adopters of Six Sigma who achieved well-publicized success include Honeywell International (previously known as Allied Signal) and General Electric, where the method was introduced by Jack Welch.[8] By the late 1990s, about two-thirds of the Fortune 500 organizations had begun Six Sigma initiatives with the aim of reducing costs and improving quality.[9]

Thanks Todd - The Rigid looks good to me too, has a great price, I just have to figure out how to get one to the new digs.

I ordered the table saw book and had Woodcraft put me on a waiting list for the next time that they offer a table saw safety and/or use class.

Now I have to find a leather apron with steel plate.....

Question: For those of you who have purchased these saws that come in big boxes. I take it that some-assembly-required comes into play? As packed will I be pulling a 300 lb saw out of a box or a number of smaller assembly's that I might be able to carry into my basement on my own and assemble there?

Thanks Todd! I am finding that things go down into the basement a lot easier than they come up out of the basement....... Likewise - I have been planting a lot of trees and it is a lot easier shoveling dirt into a hole than out of the hole.....

Thanks for your help everyone I think that I am good-to-go with a table saw now!

You would know it, NEXT month Wood Magazine shows they will have Tool Test on 10 diferent 110V hybrid tablesaws. Oh, well....

I think you got some good solid suggestions, though.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I had a tool business from 1983 to 1992 and sold Inca, Kity, Jet, and Minimax. I guess I have always been interested in machines and the improvements made over the years. I recently bought back a Inca 259 I sold in 1987. My other saw is a Delta contractors saw with several upgrades. If I had the money and was in the market. I would buy a Saw stop contractor or the top of the line Grizzly contractors saw has a riving knife and enclosed dust collection. If I had the space you can't bet a Unisaw or that type if you could find a used one. Like I said the Grizzly and sawstop are the two saws I have seen in the last year that have something new going for them. And the Grizzly was around $800 and the Sawstop around $1500.

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Mistakes are mandatory-learning from them is optional. http://www.opensourceluthiersupply.com

Hi Hesh,

Funny topic for my first post, but what the heck, .

I don't know if you already ordered a saw. I think the Grizzly saws and the Rigid are great, but I'm a Craigslist fan for high end tools, because most of us rarely use the commercial stuff very hard. So I peeked at your areas list and if you want to splurge, you can call up this guy:

http://annarbor.craigslist.org/tls/824675205.html

If he's a guitar player, maybe you can talk him down a little, but if it's in good shape and he can help you transport it, I think it's a good deal even at 2k. Thought it was a beautiful saw when I looked at it.

That said, the Rigid is an awsome value and a lot less, and I think the Grizzly products are also a good value. And of course, if you're not in a huge rush, it might be worth watching Craigslist for a little bit.

Good luck with the search, oh, and hi everyone.

Regards,
Todd

Thanks Todd and Greenman!

Todd welcome to the OLF and a special thanks to you for taking the time to check out what is available in my area!