Official Luthiers Forum!

Good example Ken.

I would not consider a properly filled and now invisible gap to be a flaw. However...... I do believe that the builder has a duty to use best practices, materials, and craftsmanship to attempt to eliminate gaps in the first place. I'll add that I would never let a guitar with a gap that was not properly and invisibly filled or eliminated by redoing the task out of my shop for a paying customer no matter what the price of the guitar.

If the gap is correctly repaired and was a candidate for filling in the first place and not requiring a re-do of the bindings, rosette, etc. the job is done and one moves on.

In guitar building it has been said that the better the builder, the better the builder is at repairing mistakes. This may include what Lance mentioned as a repair method - do it over. And most importantly this also presupposes that the mistake, gap, flaw WILL be repaired - it is not a question to put to a customer as to if they want the mistake, gap, flaw repaired.

A person who commissions a guitar probably does not want to be put in the position where their blood pressure is raised with 20 questions a week or what ever. They have contracted a professional to produce a desirable guitar. When we have a house built do we want the carpenters calling us up and asking us what to do about this matter or that matter or do we want to have a house built with good craftsmanship, on time, and within budget AND built with the same standard of care that the builder would use for the house that was built for their own family?

A customer is not typically going to be a pro at evaluating what is acceptable craftsmanship for the guitar that they commission. In some cases too much information may be a disservice and actually create an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

When a customer commissions a guitar I believe that they believe that they have engaged a professional who will just make it happen for them as agreed and with the highest level of importance placed on quality. Progress pictures are one thing - alerts to problems that can be fixed are another matter entirely........

Now to head this off at the pass so it does not go there I am not advocating not communicating with a customer. Instead I am suggesting that it is the builder's job to build the guitar with the highest standards for craftsmanship and to be the customer advocate accepting nothing less than the best that they can produce. The level of communication with a customer should be what ever was/is agreed to in advance AND builders should also be open to the idea that different customers will be comfortable with differing levels of communication.

If you notice something that you think is enough of an issue to alert a customer why not just fix it? Contacting the customer for guidance could be construed as a number of things in my view. First of course is the idea that the builder does not want to fix the flaw or they would have simply done so, quietly, and moved on. Second is the possibility that the builder wants to be enabled in providing a lower standard for quality or the builder lacks the chops to repair a flaw. And third is the idea that the builder is shaking down the customer and now looking for more money, out side of the original agreement. None of these possibilities are what I would consider a situation that any business would ever wish to contribute to creating. And I am sure none of these possibilities apply to you either Ken - I am simply suggesting that as we all know we never can know for sure how another person may perceive our motives. This is also said in an effort to be helpful to you.

My disconnect with you Ken is the idea that you offer differing levels of quality and attention to detail or leave these matters up to a customer based on the price paid for the guitar. If you simply fix any and all flaws when and if you notice them and not leave any of this up to the customer I seriously doubt that any customer would object to this.

As Brock said these are YOUR guitars and it is your very good name and brand that is being represented here.

My other disconnect with you is the idea that you sell prototype guitars even if you are clear in offering a limited level of support after the sale. To me a prototype guitar is an educational exercise and should not be financed by a customer. Depending on the levels of departure from time tested guitar design there is no telling how these guitars will fare in the short or long term. And all the while your name is on them...... Aren't you worried that one day when it rains that it will pour?

The market for and the industry of building custom guitars is still in it's infancy in my view. It needs to be nurtured with the highest levels of personal responsibility demonstrated and religiously followed by it's participants. We have something to prove here and that is that there is a viable alternative to some of the very fine and established factory guitars. Although the value-adds of our industry are often subjective in nature with things such as "tone" being an example of this subjectivity there is one consideration and one consideration alone were we can shine - quality!

Your personal standards for quality should never be left up to the the standards of another person be it another builder, a customer, or anyone else. It is something that you own forever more and for better or for worse. And the real point is that it is an opportunity that will serve you and your business very well my friend. Be unrelenting in embracing and owning your quality standards irregardless of money, time, or anything else.

For me, this says it all in one simple statement. Back when I worked construction I was told several times by supervisors and superintendents something was "good enough", that I should slow down and not work so hard, or that no one else would ever see what I considered to be a flaw.

My response was always the same - "Look, I don't work for you, I work for me. We have a mutual agreement to my employment as long as it satisfies and is beneficial to both parties. If I can't work to my standards here, I'll go somewhere else where I can."

Thing is, no one else may ever see the "flaws". But every time I see it, it sticks out like a sore thumb and I'll never have any satisfaction in my own work.

_________________
Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Howard Klepper had a really good comment on the Perspectives on a Sour Build thread over on AGF. I hope he doesn't mind if I post it here.



I'm finding this discussion fascinating even as a hobby builder with no intentions of going pro... These concepts are not unique to the guitar world. I like Howard's comments because they put it in more realistic and practical terms. I remember sitting through a training seminar by our professional liability company, and they said it was a good idea to avoid claims of "100%" and the like, because it's an unrealistic expectation and you're opening yourself up to problems if you make such claims.

If I were going pro and wanted to realistically hit different price points, I'd figure out how to balance the following factors to meet different price points and still pay myself about the same wage for my time:

1.) Playability (setup, action, intonation, fret work)
2.) Sound
3.) Fit (bindings and purflings, trim work, neck fit)
4.) Finish
5.) Materials
6.) Speed of completion
7.) Choice/Custom features

Playability - I'd say Playability is not negotiable and should be at a high tolerance no matter the price.

Sound - Sound would still need to be held to a high tolerance, but materials would affect this somewhat, and perhaps not quite as much time would be spent tapping and refining for an entry level model. But if it doesn't still sound better than a factory guitar, what's the point.

Fit - I'd say Fit needs to be at a high tolerance regardless of price. A way to economize would be to simplify, eliminate the need for mitering, no purfling, perhaps plastic bindings that are easier to fit well than wooden bindings. Maybe pieces on the inside of the box aren't sanded to as high of a grit, maybe a little glue squeeze out is acceptable if it's not right inside the soundhole?

Finish - maybe think satin vs. gloss finish? Either one, I'd say finish is another area where there's not much room to negotiate as far as the overall quality, but the type of finish could affect price.

Materials - Save the primo zoot for the high end stuff. This is an area where you can set some standard specs so you can take advantage of quantity discounts on regularly stocked material. Also, you can choose materials that are easier to work with, easier to finish, etc...

Speed of Completion - Maybe a lower price point guitar would have a longer completion date, so you could wait till you had enough orders where you could process parts in batches? Just an idea, and may just end up being too confusing to the customer.

Choice/Custom Features - Obviously on a entry level guitar, choices would be rather limited. Obviously you have the most leeway on this aspect, you can offer very few choices to cut the price down. This also saves the time spent making the sale, fewer decisions to discuss and explain.

What do you think? Do you guys consider all this stuff methodically, or do you feel it out more based on experience?

_________________
______________________________
Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Jonathan my friend thanks for that!

Thanks too for Howard's excellent post which is the best yet but what I want to know is why Howard rarely exceeds one paragraph of input here on the OLF and the AGF got not one, not two, but THREE paragraphs of Howard!!!!!

This really hurts!

Howard in the software business we use the irritating phrase "performs substantially as described" as the ejection seat from the warranty.......

I saw a brand new one the other night parked outside of the steak place located next to my favorite burger joint. Still had the paper license plates and all. Top down. I stopped to look for a minute before getting my burger.

What I hear being said is this. There are several levels of economy in which builders are willing to hang their hat. Some are at the highest range of this economy and some are at the lower range and some want to hang their hat at various positions of the guitar makers economy.

There will always be some who agree with some, and other's who agree with others. And because there is no governing body for those who make guitars, there is no correct answer but the one in which we all choose. Some may not agree and even behind the scenes will baulk at those who sit at their decided level of that economy and at the end of the day, the success of each is really their own issue to worry about.

I know where I want my priorities to lie when it comes to the quality (I encompass playability, sound, fit & finish, material etc... all into the term quality here as I don't ever want one to be more important than the other but all on the same level playing field) of my guitars. I know that they are higher than some and not as high as others, but I know where I want to be eventually and that is the most important goal.

I never want to negotiate on my level of quality just to make a sale. I believe that is a compromise on my priorities, reputation and commitment to my customers.

In the end though we all have to be comfortable with where we hang our hat and it's not worth the effort to try and convince someone else to see things our way. The market will always tell us if we are successful or not.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I totaly agree, of course no offense taken.
i just got back of holiday and remembered that i wrote this, and i stand by what i say - i just hadn't read the original thread (still haven't)..... & I think i gave accross the wrong impression.
I once had a guy who complained that the screw holes under the backplate weren't countersunk...!!? thats the kind of guy that I was talking about....someone like that complaining about you on the web would be a gyp, but anyone who had half a clue would know he was full of it.

I'm waaay more picky with my work than my customers are, i get the impression from what I've read here that the guitar in the thread has serious problems - thats a completely different thing and should be 100% sorted by the builder.
cheers!

_________________
www.theguitarrepairworkshop.com