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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:37 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13388
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Clay S. wrote:
Hesh wrote:
"Just think Clay of all the joy my plethora of posts brings you??? :)"

Hesh, for the most part I have enjoyed and benefited from your postings on this forum, and liked seeing the latest "Heshtone" as they were created. Occasionally with your postings I think you "went off the rails", but with 30,000 posts that is bound to happen. Forums have a way of cycling through people, but it's nice to see people stick around for the duration and provide some continuity.
All the best,
Clay Schaeffer


Thanks Clay, very much appreciated my friend!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:27 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6256
Location: Virginia
truckjohn wrote:
What I saw on many of these bad hand builds is that the fretboards were being hand slotted by the builders.

1/16" is microscopic to the average person who doesn't do tool and die work.... But it's massive on a fretboard or bridge.... And seriously - how good are you really when using a ruler and a pencil to layout the frets? No! Stop! Buy a slotted fretboard from a company who cuts them on CNC or with a gang saw....

Every project guitar I have found locally for sale would have required a new fretboard and bridge not to mention a neck set. That means the price goes WAY WAY down... and I am sure it's why Dave and Hesh specifically require the guitar to already nominally be working BEFORE they will do setups. Because these don't need SETUP - they need expensive and time consuming repair work...

These didn't even pass the 1st gate to get to "Servicability" - they were still decorative wall hangings and furniture...

Thanks

I have to disagree. I have measured purchased and pre-slotted boards and they were off. I cut them by hand and don't have problems with intonation.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Even factories get it wrong too.

Gang saws wear, or gets knocked out of alignment for whatever reason. Pretty much not many are going to use CNC, it will either be done by hand using a table saw with guides, or gang saws.

And if you buy the pre slotted board from Aliexpress, who knows if they're done right or not.

You really only need to be accurate to about .3mm with fret spacing, and that is completely doable using a ruler with fine divisions. String gauge will change intonation far more than that.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:02 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
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State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
jfmckenna wrote:
truckjohn wrote:
What I saw on many of these bad hand builds is that the fretboards were being hand slotted by the builders.

1/16" is microscopic to the average person who doesn't do tool and die work.... But it's massive on a fretboard or bridge.... And seriously - how good are you really when using a ruler and a pencil to layout the frets? No! Stop! Buy a slotted fretboard from a company who cuts them on CNC or with a gang saw....

Every project guitar I have found locally for sale would have required a new fretboard and bridge not to mention a neck set. That means the price goes WAY WAY down... and I am sure it's why Dave and Hesh specifically require the guitar to already nominally be working BEFORE they will do setups. Because these don't need SETUP - they need expensive and time consuming repair work...

These didn't even pass the 1st gate to get to "Servicability" - they were still decorative wall hangings and furniture...

Thanks

I have to disagree. I have measured purchased and pre-slotted boards and they were off. I cut them by hand and don't have problems with intonation.


And I'll disagree with you JF. We have in our database precise measurements of the fret spacing of nearly 500 instruments some common, some iconic and very valuable in an over ten year study of fret spacing. Dave wrote software to drive the study as well that does of the math of the rule of 18 and other fret spacing methods used by the usual suspects over the years.

We have defined errors in spacing that are audible and noticeable and in our study we can visually back up what people like John are saying that they can hear. Our measurements are done with long calipers that have been calibrated and checked and the study will likely be published in the future, Dave just needs to finish it up and it's been asked for by one of the publications.

We see the very worst fret spacing of all on small Luthier built instruments with fret spacing errors that create all manner of issues for the players of which some players have even brought us the guitar wondering if their frets were off.

The very best and most precise fret boards we have ever measured were the CNC boards that I used by Watkins and later on after I was no longer building the CNC boards by Birko that our business has used for repair work. On both of these examples the error rate was nearly nonexistent. Andy's boards are available right now and are IME the most precise fret spaced and generally well made fret boards available today. So much so that if I were building again I would be using Andy's boards and feel fortunate to have them.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:07 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13388
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Tai Fu wrote:
Even factories get it wrong too.

Gang saws wear, or gets knocked out of alignment for whatever reason. Pretty much not many are going to use CNC, it will either be done by hand using a table saw with guides, or gang saws.

And if you buy the pre slotted board from Aliexpress, who knows if they're done right or not.

You really only need to be accurate to about .3mm with fret spacing, and that is completely doable using a ruler with fine divisions. String gauge will change intonation far more than that.


Yep and our study shows this. We can tell which gang saw was used back in the day at g*bson and we can see the template that they used wearing over time with the errors expanding due to template wear in a specific direction.

Then all of a sudden everything gets tightened up as if they deployed new tooling or made a new template.

I don't know what is charged today for a quality CNC board but when I was building they were cheap and a huge upgrade.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:10 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3929
Location: United States
Back when I started out (when we had to fight the big triceritops for the best tree ferns for top wood) there were no pre-slotted boards. We learned to do them by hand and get them 'good enough' (which means, IMO, +/- .2 mm or better). While I buy pre-slotted boards these days, I also still make some, since it's the only way I know to get them in woods like persimmon or hornbeam when you don't have a table saw. It's not impossible, but its not easy either.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:17 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
All you need is a miter box and a Japanese hand saw, and you can cut fret slots all day.

I think I will use my mill DRO to establish the spacing though.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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