Official Luthiers Forum!

I know that bending with blankets and a bender seem to be the preferred method but how much spring back do you guys get with it. What I mean is If I use a bender exclusively will I have problems with springback or can one use a bender without a pipe for touch up? I would hate to go with a bender and discover I need both. Is the construction of the form the critical part to prevent springback or compensate for it?

Thanks

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Zac

Anchorage Alaska

Finshed my 1st! See #1 here

I frequently use both. I often bend bindings on a pipe and sides in the bender, but sometimes I touch the sides up if they don't fit to the mold as nicely as I like.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I don't have a bender and form due to the fact my workshop is the size of a shoebox.

I have had limited success on the hotpipe, either because I have used compliant woods, or I've just been lucky.

When it comes right down to it you will need both, just because the universal type bender just isn't 100% perfect you will end up touching your bends up on the hot pipe. My advise is get yourself a pipe(or make one) and learn how to use it, then add a bender if you feel the need. Even Charles Fox says the bender isn't perfect enough for him and he uses a pipe to touch up.

Cal

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Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers!

I have both but honestly, I don't EVER use my pipe anymore. I've compensated my bending forms at the waist and at each end and after they are finished bending they fit more perfect in my mold than they ever would by me touching them up on the pipe.

My first two guitars, I bent on the pipe, neither of them were anywhere near perfect. The 3-6th ones I've bent with the bending machine and they are considerably more perfect than I could ever do on the pipe. The important factor is the acuracy of the bending form. If the form isn't shaped right, of course it won't produce a perfect side.

Now, I know a pro (local in my area) who makes about 60 guitars a year. For the first 5 years of business he used a bending machine much like the ones at Larrivee (he apprenticed there). For the last 6 years he's bent everything on the pipe. He says that it's just as fast for him and he likes to feel the wood bending and form it into shape.

So all that to say, both will work fine. One just needs to master the pipe or compensate the bending form (also make sure the form is acurate to the mold and final shape). But I don't think we really need both. Do you think Martin, Taylor, Takamine (insert good quality factory name here...) worry about touching up on the pipe? They make there bending forms to compensate for spring back or they just don't get any. Wood can be bent in the bending machine so it doesn't spring back. The technique just needs to be right.

That's my opinion anyway.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

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Does anyone use a blowtorch/pipe outfit?

I was thinking of using fencepost steel, but its galvanized, not sure if that will offgas when heated with a torch???

There is some 12' length of aluminium pipe on ebay, but its only 1/8 thick. But its cheap.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

You need both or at least I use both.

Never, never, never leave your pipe on and clamped to a bench pointing into your shop if you build in your boxers.........

-

Ok, Under 800, so what type of flame on the torch? Low,medium high? What temp is this thing heated to??

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

I used the pipe/torch combo for decades and just recently splurged on the electric type. It works just as well and is a bit safer I think.
In order to prevent the torch from blowing itself out while inserted into the pipe, it always required very fine adjustment.
I would get it hot enough so that water dripped onto it's surface would "dance".........don't know exactly what temp it was. I would briefly soak the wood and bend wet......by the time the water had steamed off the bend was accomplished and I moved ahead to the next wetted area. I would experiment with your flame to get this result but not be so hot that it will scorch the wood.

I've never used a bending machine.

Good to know Hesh since I do in fact do many building operations in my boxers

Thanks all for now I think an electric pipe bender is in my future. The torch is not for me( kids and an Apt) and I can't afford to do both. Maybe a future purchase....

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Zac

Anchorage Alaska

Finshed my 1st! See #1 here

Zac, there are many inexpensive ways to make a pipe bender as well as a side bender with molds.

http://www.lint.org/TechNotes/lowcostbender.html
http://www.billsbest.com/thsidebender.html

You could easily have both of these benders for less than $30 and a bit of effort on your part.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Thanks I actually have the parts for the second bender but haven't been able to find a suitable pipe for a decent price here...ok maybe I will try to do the first one it doesn't look too hard......

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Zac

Anchorage Alaska

Finshed my 1st! See #1 here

Here's another one from the MIMF where the person used a coffee can for the "pipe"

http://www.mimf.com/library/side_bender2.htm

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I'm using a fox style bender for my sides and I'm having a tough time bending the wood. I've got two 100 watt bulbs and I'm scared to put higher watts in. It just seems like a fire hazzard... being in an apartment doesn't seem so safe...

Last night I tried to boil/steam my sides and the heat from doing so left the wood within minutes of removing the wood from the steam bath..

PNJ it's good to have a healthy respect for side benders because they have caused fires and we had an OLF member who's bender nearly caused a fire in his shop. But this is when it was left on and unattended.

As in your other thread I would still suggest getting a blanket and not trying to reinvent the bending wheel so-to-speak.... If you can't do a blanket lots of benders have 3 bulbs, 150 - 200 watts.

Also get a fire extinguisher which every shop should have too and make sure that it is properly charged as well. And just get in the habit of never leaving your bender if it is on no matter what might distract you and you will be fine.

I make it a habit of standing next to or sitting near my bender when it's on. I'll have to try higher watt bulbs I think. I realize a blanket is better but I'd rather spend the 100 bucks or so on other items...

How did they make instruments hundreds of years ago?

Would a ladies curling iron work for bending binding...?

I wouldn't think they get hot enough..

You can bend binding over the top of a light bulb!

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Dave
Milton, ON

They had to wait for lightning to strike and than they would run out to the fields with there side wood in hand and find the tree which was hit by the lightning, look around for the best size limb and start bending. Often though, lightning would strike twice and they got fried

Just kidding of course. Often they used the pipe in which there wood stove exhausted out of the building. Metal and heat in any form make for a good bender. There are still some who like to use coal fired pipes to do their bending if you can beleive it. One doesn't need electricity to bend sides. Heck I bet my 2.5" exhaust pipe on my truck gets plenty hot enough to bend sides on.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I believe AlexM bent his sides using a curling iron. They will get hot enough. The small size is something of an issue. They get so hot they'll curl your hair!

Speaking of Alex M, has anyone heard from him? I haven't seen him around lately.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Ask Billy........

Electric BBQ starter in some exhaust pipe.
Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

I am of the opinion that everyone who wants to build guitars would do well to learn to bend sides by hand on a pipe. I'm not really a "traditionalist" by nature and I'm definitely not a hand tool purist or anything like that. I just think that bending wood by hand on a pipe is a great way to do it and a great skill to have.

For a hobbyist who is probably going to build less than a dozen guitars in their lifetime (I realize some hobbyists will build quite a few more than that, but I think you get my point), presumably of several different shapes, it seems silly to me to build a bender and different forms when you can just bend them all by hand. For someone who intends to get into guitar building on a professional or semi-pro level, it seems clear to me that bending by hand is one of the basic skills that will make life a lot easier.

Besides, it's fun! Really. It may be challenging at first, but challenge is a big part of what guitar building is all about, right? I'm not trying to chastise anyone for not being a "real luthier" or any such nonsense, I just think you're missing out on one of the coolest experiences in the process of building a guitar if you haven't bent at least a few sides by hand. It's not really THAT hard. For one thing, I think it gives you a much clearer sense of what you're asking the wood to do when using a bender, so it can help a lot with your success in using a bender if you decide to use one. Also, I think accidents like scorching and breaking sides are a lot less likely with hand bending because you're handling the wood directly and constantly checking on your progress - you can feel the wood relax and give, you don't force it beyond what it's ready to do, and you can immediately see/feel/smell if it's getting too hot because you don't have it all closed up in a bender.

It seems to me that the popularity of the Fox benders (and various others) has created a popular assumption that if you want to build a guitar, one of the first things you need to do is build a bender, and/or that bending by hand is this extraordinarily difficult thing that a beginner should circumvent if possible... quite mistaken notions, if you ask me.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/