Official Luthiers Forum!

Hmmm

One more question to answer, or not.   

Could it be that water based glue is clamped different - higher pressure - than epoxy - low clamping pressure, and that leads to back bow?

Glue isn't the only difference.
Just wondering.

Signed,
Steve, a glutton for verbal abuse.   

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Might have a role in how the swollen wood reacts after unclamping but I don't think the clamping pressure its self and an impact that causes back bowing.

Wood + Water = Expansion

Unless some genius luthiers here have figured out how to do that in an alternative universe...

But you are all perfectly free to make all the same mistakes that others of us have made on your own.   You'll just be able to wake up someday and go, "Bingo! That's what they were talking about!" instead of having to figure it out for yourselves as some of us did...

Thanks all for your input and jolly banter . Hesh, thanks so much for the offer, but I have some on order as we speak (write?). Looking forward to getting together.

Best,
Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

_________________
Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Wood + Water = Expansion........[/QUOTE]
Yes, every time.
But 100% of the necks that use water based glues do not have a problem. The equation does not balance.

There seems to be a variable that is not well understood/defined. I suggest variable clamping forces as a possibility. Could it be something else? - Sure.
Could it be the water based glue? - sure
What else could it be? I don't know.

(OK - Please bring on more verbal abuse.      )

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Wood + Water = Expansion
Unless some genius luthiers here have figured out how to do that in an alternative universe...
[/QUOTE]

HA! Just soak the whole kit-n-kaboodle first!

Thank you very much

(ducking back into the alternative universe... quickly!)

This stuff all makes lots of sense, until you hear experts recommending polyurethane glues, which are moisture curing and either:
a)pull water out of the wood to cure
or
b)require moistening the gluing surface to cure properly.

Obviously this is all more critical if you are fretting off the neck. If you are levelling the fingerboard and fretting after the neck is attached/glued to the body, it's easier to compensate for bowing caused by water (or lack of it).

Cheers
John

I've used polyurethane glue for this; it pulls enough moisture to catalyze without adding any.   It just takes a bit longer to cure.   I don't like the foaming, and epoxy is no big deal to use.

Why compensate for problems you create?   That makes no sense to me whatsoever.   Let's go and screw up so we can be brilliant at repairing our messes...   Yeah, that's it!

All I'm going to say is that if you're not having problems, then great.   How much time do you have to spend leveling your fingerboards before fretting?   Can you fret a fingerboard off the neck and then glue it on and barely need to do a fret level, crown, and polish?

And why such apparently vehement rejection of using what is arguably a superior glue for this particular joint?   This isn't religion.   Y'all use whatever you want.   Just don't come back asking why your necks move so much or you're having problems with setups. I've done 'em a whole lot of ways, and I'm getting fewer neck problems with epoxy than any other kind of glue.

Rick,
Thank you for sharing your experience and views!
I hope you have a great NAMM show and I hope to see you there.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Must.... to.... remember..... my.... new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution, new year's resolution

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]
And why such apparently vehement rejection of using what is arguably a superior glue for this particular joint? [/QUOTE]

?? Was this aimed at my comment about polyurethanes?
PU glues involve water for curing. If you want to avoid water problems in the neck, use epoxy (like I do).

If you need fast 'turnaround' on your guitars, shape the neck completely and then glue on your pre-fretted and levelled fingerboard, then attach to a body with the perfect geometry.

I find it easier to use a more 'traditional' building sequence- the clamping is easier and I can fix minor problems as I go. BTW, there are 'established' luthiers who fret after attaching the neck, and shape the neck after gluing on the fingerboard, so I guess there's more than one 'right way' to do this.

Cheers
John

PU glues involve water for curing.

urban legend #194628254899462-b

It needs moisture, but there should be enough present in nearly all woods so that none needs be added. We don't have to do the Norm Abram deal with the soaking wet sponge and the puddles of water on the surface <Lol>

"and now, for some of the high tech moischuh cuhred glue, and a light wipe with a sponge"
 "Spalsh!!!"

"And some brads to hold it tight " bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..bang! tch..

Dude...I just saw your New Years resolution post. Lighten up...watch the blood pressure. How much daylight are you seeing these days?

And 3 "tch...bangs!" would have been sufficient! These are the same symptoms that postal workers exhibit before they go...well...Postal!

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Why not just use medium viscosity CA? Apparently it works great for bridges glued directly onto a polyester finish. Bridges being one of the most stressed joints on the guitar and all, this should work just fine on a fretboard. Heck epoxy only has 20 years up on CA being only invented in 1936 (epoxy) and 1955 (CA).

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

It's like, you know, writing lines on the chalkboard after school....

But the 'bangs' denote Norm's overuse of brads, and my ridiculous number of the 'bangs' is a parody of his overuse of brads. Y'all never saw the one where he's making this thing with beautiful flamed maple, and then trims it also in flamed maple, with nice miters and all, then bangbangbangbangbang!!, shoots about a dozen brads into all that nice flamed maple the face trim <lol>

Never did understand why they go postal. What sets them off? "Another STAMP!?" "You want ANOTHER STAMP!?" "That's enough stamps for you, Sir!". bangbangbang....

Never did understand why they go postal. What sets them off?

It's from licking stamps made with fish glue.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

Shoot...I figure 2 brads per fret slot should get 'er done!

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=Kent Chasson]

Never did understand why they go postal. What sets them off?

It's from licking stamps made with fish glue.

[/QUOTE]
That's not so smart.
It causes a back bow in the tongue.
Everyone knows that.   

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Thanks everyone for your contributions

I finished my first instrument last october. Spent about 300 hours building it over seven months. I have spent the last 3 months trying to make the thing easy to play. It had so much initial back bow that medium gauge strings wouldn't pull it straight  I levelled and re levelled frets getting close to the point of no return. After much weeping and gnashing of teeth thankfully it has finally now stabilised and I don't think I will need to re-fret after all. I for 1 will not be using Titebond again for gluing the fretboard.

Regards

Craig.

-