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Rod, When I said I could make things faster than the CNC machine, I was thinking about bridges. It currently takes the CNC machine 6 hours and 43 minutes to run the routines for making a bridge. no big deal for me since I dont use a bridge a day anyway and I am sure that I could produce a bridge by hand in less than 6 hours. I'm not sure I could get it to the accuracy of the CNC machine though....maybe close enough.

I use a CNC made template (From Bob Garrish) and a sled to cut the slots on my fretboards. it is accurate every time and I like making them this way. I could do it by hand, but why would I want to?

On other things, like leveling bindings, I prefer to use a hand scraper. I have found this to be faster, easier and a lot more accurate than using a sander to do the same work.

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Reguards,

Ken H

I can't exclude those of us that use any type of tools from the ranks of artist and here is my reasoning.

Early humans first pained their art with their fingers, twigs and crushed plant for pigment but the renaissance artist used newly developed bound hair brushes, pallet knifes and formulated paint media that earlier generations did not have. Michelangelo used metal chisels and mallets to carve out the David but Gutzon Borglum used dynamite and pneumatic jack hammers to carve out the faces in Mount Rushmore

Which of these must be excluded from the ranks of artist because they used tools that aided their efficiency?

it is honorable to keep a technique and skill alive in ones art. But seems to me to be a bit self richeous and pompous to pronounce those that use more modern tools to be lesser artists

If I wrote computer script (on a very modern tool) that could replicate the strokes and paint of the Mona Lisa - and be indistinguishable from the original - I wouldn't consider myself an artist or a painter - just an awesome programmer.

Teaching a machine to do something requires a deeper understanding of the process than simply being able to do it yourself. You wouldn't just be an artist if you could program that machine, you'd be a genius.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

To do as you wrote you would like Bob said be a genius. but also a plagiarist if the intent is deception.

Just meant as food for thought here. I am not pointing fingers here at any one. But what is the point of proclaiming the use of power tools to be less than artistic. Is it self promoting or does it increase self relevance? No! I have the skills and use most of the same hand working tools as you do most of you. But the fact is when it is all boild down there are only two important things in building guitars. The structural integrity and musical quality of the instrument. The details of how the guitar got these attrubutes is really only important to the builder him self. All the deails in getting there is icing on the cake for us. But in truth only for us. The world moves ever forward and for the most part our lifes, talents and craft are beninfited by the fact that it does.

In spite of (or because of ?) the fact that the machine vs hand argument has been hashed and rehashed, I still love it. Good questions to ask.

One quote I love on the subject...

"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides as comfortably in the circuits of a Fadal as he does at the top of a mountain or in the blade of a Michi chisel. To think otherwise is to demean the Buddha – which is to demean oneself."

-Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

OK, that's not an EXACT quote but close...

In my opinion, the main problem with jigs and machines is that people often limit their thinking based on the machine. Instead of asking "what's the best outcome and the best way to do this?" people ask "what's the best and fastest way to do this on this particlar machine?" But that is obviously a human problem and not a machine problem. The reverse is true too when someone limits their thinking based on what is practical to achieve without a lot of tooling.

The main problem I see is that people get invested, literally and figuratively, in jigs and machines till it becomes a barrior to tying something new. Something like, "Well, I think solid linings sound promising but I just put in 10 hours making this jig to make kerfed lining and I just cranked out enough lining for 3 years so I'm sticking with it."

I don't worry that the art is dying though. From the looks of it, there is still plenty of room to approach this craft from all angles and I assume there will always be passionate, dedicated, smart people who will continue to advance the art, the craft, and the science of it.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

The only people I know of who deny that there is any art in CAD and or CAM are those who don't know how to use them.

I'll stop there.

I've read the article a couple of times now and my take is not so much the argument over hand tools vs power tools, per se, but that having a grounded education in the use of hand tools can provide more opportunity to be creative with and to be closer to the material that we are working with --wood. My hat is off to Ervin for putting this in print! He has got a bunch of folks thinking about things and that is such a good thing to do!

I am fortunate that there were a bunch of carpenters in my family's background. I was able to mess about with hand tools from a very young age. Without being judgemental, what I like about hand tools is that it puts me in more intimate contact with the wood and it brings my pace down to the human level -- much like the difference in pace between cross-country skiing and alpine skiing -- again no judgement. What I like about power tools is that in certain activities drudgery is limited and sometimes, a higher level of repeatable accuracy cam be found. There are both types of tools in my shop.

What a wonderful conversation this has become!

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Great quote Kent and I completely agree with your reasoning on all points.

How often have we heard about the 1,000 ways to build a guitar or that dang poor naked cat?

I will admit that now that I can sharpen an edge tool to a hair popping edge on water stones and without a guide/jig it is a very satisfying thing to do. The most satisfying part of guitar building for me is hand carving braces with my favorite 18mm LMI chisel and finger planes. But I also find it relaxing to sit on a stool and feed stock into one side of the Performax and out the other, over and over, taking small passes, and enjoying a cool drink all the while (not booze and I wear ear protection).

If I were to ask the philosophical question which I believe to be related here as follows: Would you want to have to go into combat today with a bow and arrow or edge weapon because it is more "purist" or an M4 with grenade launcher what would be your choice? Although guitar making is not war - business is....... And this speaks to the idea that in order to realize enough success in our craft we must also produce enough product to make it worth while and sustainable.

One could also argue that employing technology for repetitive tasks actually may free up a craftsman to pursue a particular interest in some old world aspects of the craft as well. It's all a question of balance. And - it's all good IMHO.

actually I was specifically talking about working with wood

I've been working with woods for all of my adult life and know in my heart the more I use my hands and simple tools the more I am able to truly understand the characteristics of the specific piece of material I am working on...and I surely have no problem 'admitting' I use one hell of a lot of power tools in my bread earning trade as a trim carpenter...

I truly admire and am floored by the obvious talent Bob has, but I honestly can't compare working with shell and metals to dealing with wood...they are just simply two different fruits each with their own characteristics and difficulties...

and really I have no issues with CNC mills and such being used on a lot of guitar parts, but I think when constructing the body of an acoustic hands on beats CNC 'hands down'...and that is what small time luthiers (surely no insult intended) are relying upon when trying to compete with the likes of Taylor guitars and such (I own 3 and love them)...sure, every single guitar of a specific model line is made to exacting tolerances, but said tolerances do NOT allow for a person using his years of experience and innate abilities to make each individual instrument stand out to the fullness of its capabilities (which is based upon the specific pieces of wood being used for the top, backs, sides, braces)..

the above is just a clarification of my thoughts and is in no way intended as the start of any sort of p!ssing match

One thing he mentions in the article which I strongly agreed with was that most of the emphasis to is on learning the how-to's of the craft from a technical standpoint, and not as much learning on the artistic side. I think Ervin has a unique perspective on this, being both a craftsman and an educator, both formerly as an educator in a collegiate setting, and as an educator in the guitar world. And he's extremely artistic in his own right.. This was a terrific article for sure, and I've taken a lot of it to heart personally to challenge myself in ways I haven't in the past. I certainly don't believe for a second that Ervin feels that the advances in technology are a bad thing, just that they have their roots in something more basic, that we can only benefit by spending time learning.

I often go to my local Woodcraft store, and when I do, there's a young guy who is a master at sharpening and using edge tools that I always try to watch in action. It's really something to behold how he takes a dull chisel or plane blade, and then makes them sharp enough to cleanly cut end grain. Wow! There's something to it all. I also think there may be and a sense of oneness with the wood that you can get with hand tools that you can't get with power tools. I think that's why some guys really prefer to carve a neck by hand rather than use power tools or a cnc. I think I'm starting to understand what he meant by the sense of creativity that one can have with hand tools. Like Michael, I'll find a balance with it all for pragmatic reasons, but having those basic skills is a cool thing.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I've been using hand tools most of my life, and I make every part of a guitar that I can (except for tuners and fret wire). It is the way I enjoy working and I don't think I will change. Can I make linings or a neck fast enough to beat the price of suppliers? I doubt it. Are the parts I make any better than CNC parts? They are to me, but not by any objective standard. It's just the way of work that brings me enjoyment. How anyone else builds is not for me to judge. I'm happy every time a good sounding instrument is made by any method.

Peace, Paul

For some reason I didn't get that issue in the mail but I certainly would love to read it. Is it anywhere online?

Thanks

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Is this woody enough? I only made one of them, though I've considered making another out of ebony (which would be highly impractical with any other tool). It went from my mind into CAD and from CAD through the Fadal onto a really pretty brick of walnut. I suppose I could put some pictures of guitar necks or something up, but you all know what those look like and I think the bowl is a bit more artistic. Wood is just another material, just one that has a lot more variance than the more pleasantly uniform ones. It is no harder or easier to deal with than metal is, just different. People aren't one-dimensional, and skills aren't mutually exclusive.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

How many of you commenting here make your living from building guitars?

How many of you build guitars that retail for way above $20,000.00?

Context is important...

Bob..I'm sorry, I should have gone back and edited my post because after it was posted I of course realized my comment did not indicate that I have been to your website many times and I am aware of all of the work you can do...yep, I've seen the thread you started about pyramid bridges ...as stated in my last post I am referring to the construction of the box in particular which is where most of the tone of an acoustic is generated...yes the neck, and its block, the fingerboard and the bridge all contribute to the overall sound but in my eyes using mills to make those parts is 'acceptable'...though I do believe that if one makes them by hand they will get a better feel of just exactly what the characteristics of the material are and be able to make a judgment of how they will contribute to the sound....

the above comments are made in a Ervinesque state of mind...I have a 4 year degree in Economics/Business from the University of California Santa Cruz and am quite aware of the necessity of having to use power tools to be competitive...

I would modify your response to WarrenG to read "You wouldn't just be an artist if you could program that machine, you'd be a genius ALSO." I have a deep respect for the work that need be done to make a computer do what you want and do it efficiently..to me true artistry and genius go hand in hand and trust me I respect the work that you produce (at least as best I can tell from pictures )

nope, I am not a luthier that builds $20K guitars...in fact I haven't even built one yet and have been viewing this forum learning a lot of stuff, but I will stand behind my thoughts about woods and such as having been a player for over 30 years I know there just has to be merits to my thoughts...

On the one hand, I completely agree with you that doing this sort of thing for a living imparts a lot of perspective that one might not otherwise acquire. On the other hand, flashing credentials in an argument is a cop-out tactic unless the other side is entirely unwilling to back up their own argument with facts. So doing this gives you a lot of facts others aren't aware of, but I don't think someone is necessarily infallible because they make more money at something than someone else does. The pricing of instruments is definitely not strictly correlated to the skill of the builder or the quality of the instruments themselves.

I'm not saying you or Ervin don't deserve such respect, Rick, as I think you both walk the walk. But it's your reasoning and experience that earns that respect, not your paychecks. I've read a lot of hogwash from guys making a good chunk of change off of lutherie.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I was just thinking the other day, as guys who read and post everyday in a guitar forum and have guitarmaking on the brain constantly, we lose a little sight of the broader picture. I think it's a wonderful sign of life that so many people are driven to make their own guitars, whether it be with machined pieces from a kit or completely from scratch, in this era where one could so easily buy a decent off the shelf guitar for not much scratch. It's encouraging that people are still driven to build and create in some fashion.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I think my point has been mis-read.

Many of the folks who so romantically advocate doing things "by hand" are dedicated amateurs, who, if they were to sell their guitars would wind up making barely over minimum wage. The act of guitar making is an end unto itself; it's a wonderful hobby and so there's no necessity of working quickly, efficiently, and making a living out of it.

At the other extreme is a guy like Ervin who gets so much money for his guitars that he can afford a very philosophical point of view with regard to the nobility of hand work.

Most of us are caught somewhere between these two extremes. I know I certainly am. I'm fully capable of building decent guitars with an absolute minimum of power tools. My guitars do not command "artist" prices as most of what I do are for working musicians, not wealthy collectors...though I'm certainly working on that problem. I am still stuck thinking of guitars as tools for musicians, not pieces of art. I'm not an artiste, I'm a toolmaker making his living at it. High falutin' concepts of the moral high ground achieved by Zen craftsmanship are not in my ken...yet. Maybe someday I'll get lucky and be able to stop building guitars for working guitarists...

Art is War! War is Art!

We all dissect to help to understand concept, practice, material, but unfortunately we seem to forget to put it back together again. My observation as a CNC programer included a very high understanding of practice working with materials and tools.... you absolutely have too! This is why we will probably never see engineers running CNC, exclusively.

Conceptual variations from what is manufacturingly possible is a problem that happens, not so much often, in manufacturing, but happens and if not caught can be a real problem.

I have seen men go from the stark raving look of terror on their face thinking about CNC, go to be actually it's biggest proponents after becoming familiar with the capabilities.

The fear or concern that tools such as planes, chisels.... going out of favor is misplaced, they have been around, literally, in some form, for thousands of years. It's way to easy to pick up a chisel and cut something quickly than to set up a CNC or plain mill for that matter. Synonymous thinking... the hammer will be obsolete! Won't happen. Is there some deep spiritual way to use a hammer... probably, but not life changing. If lost, it was lost for a reason.

My experience when one resorts to "spiritual" explainations for the mechanical we lose sight of what spirit is. The art of building guitars is also science/spirit/manufacturing because it requires spirit to do.

Spirit is often misunderstood as comfort in technique! A 2 years old probably would use more real spirit in building a guitar because he would have to, to get the job done, but has very little immediate ability to do as such.

These lamentations seem to come from those that are older, perhaps a reminiscing, to a time when life was misperceived now, as being easier... it... wasn't!

I believe, many times, one is seeing, instead of loss of craft, not to be too maudlin, the big "D", their own death.

Fogey think!

I don't see too many people in their 30's/40's looking back at how easy things were when they were 20 or teenagers. That's probably because their memory still functions .

We put it back together... after the science experiment, it all works quite well!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I FINALLY got back in! Whew!

I read the article a couple of times. It seems to me as though Ervin was talking about the religious aspect in terms of the notion of a 'calling'. This is not too familiar to most folks these days, and maybe I can explain it somewhat.

The priesthood is an example of a 'vocation'; a religious duty that one is 'called' to take up. It would be as much a sin to deny such a calling as it would be to claim it when one had not been so called. My understanding (which could be flawed) is that Catholicism viewed, or views, such callings to be restricted only to the priesthood, or other religious functions, such as becoming a nun or a monk. While other social orders are seen as necessary, and thus, to some extent, ordained by God, insofar as He established the social structure, one would not be called to the work of a craftsman or businessman.

In some parts of the Protestant tradition all productive work is seen as necessary, so any of it can be a vocation: one can be called to be a farmer, a trader, a lawyer, or even a luthier (but not a thief, for example). A worker who has found his calling feels a great sense of security. It is, after all, one's place as ordained by God; one is, in however small and mysterious a way, furthering the work of salvation, and gaining assurance of grace. Work becomes, as it was for Bach, for example, a form of worship. Excellence is demanded: as the Hebrew National hot dog ads said: 'The government says we can put in fillers, but we have to answer to a higher power".

People have gone 'round and 'round about this notion, and, as I say, it's not something that gets talked about much outside of classrooms of either religion or sociology. It is, nonetheless, one of the root concepts of our society, in some ways, so it's good to understand it.

I enjoyed your observation, Alan. It sounds like this is an article I'd like to read. The following is merely historical or sociological info and doesn't mention the merits for or against. It's for anyone interested in a bit more on the historical views of calling and vocation.

Vocation comes from the Latin vocatio. Vocatio is the way one participates in their community. Protestants traditionally call this "ordinary time," and it's what Protestant church services are geared to prepare you for week to week. Historically, they're more interested in preparing a worshipper to go outside into reality in faithful living. Google Saint Patrick's Shield for more insight into what that is (it's not behavior based). I Googled for an essay I read on Martin Luther's views on vocation and found it. Anyone can check it out if they're interested: http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/hein.htm.

The Protestant view of calling is that it's who you are, though that isn't the predominant idea associated with the word in modern Christian circles. Calling is the fabric that makes you who you are, you know, metaphysically speaking (i.e. not type B blood and a few extra pounds). Vocation is how you manifest that calling.

You can see how they improvise off each other.

I used a Lie-Nielsen #5 jack plane today for the first time since it arrived (the first time I've ever used a plane, actually). I used it by practicing different cuts and playing with the cut depth to see how it effected things. And then I showed the shavings to my mom. It was a great time for me, but not because it made me think about how I exist in my spirituality. I can't tell you why it's so fun to do, but it is.

I'm 26, so you know, our culture at large would tell you I shouldn't spend saturday mornings in the local woodworking store. I don't have an iPod, so I should've put the money down on that, right? Not a jack plane of all things (culturally speaking). But I did, and it felt special to learn with it. So for me, it's not religious, it's political.

Back to being a lurker.

That makes a nice parallel with my secular advice on success:
Find something you're naturally good at, and then figure out how to make someone pay you for it.
The corollary is that those who achieve greatness are the ones with the talent of a natural and the dogged work ethic of a hack

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I read Ervin's article, and felt like I was at the wrong end of a wagging finger. I also felt like Ervin is somewhat out of touch with the innovations and experimentation (and the creative spirit fueling them) going on in lutherie. It seems to me there are plenty of hippie craftsmen still around, that is, those of us that did not drown in our vomit or OD on mood altering substances. We're just older now! And some of us have embraced tools with moving parts. Many of us have built wooden utilitarian objects (like cabinets and furniture) and not just art objects. In that world, we found that repetitive operations had a more consistent outcome when we built jigs. So, we built jigs. When interests wandered into lutherie, the wisdom of jig-making was not forgotten (except by those hippies that had the most powerful Humboldt sin semilla.) If someone is building a single guitar, or is primarily concerned with, as Rick Turner said, the act of guitar making (the journey), then by all means, build the entire guitar with a dozuki, scrapers, planes, chisels, and knives. But for those who are at least as interested in the destination (the guitar), or who plan to build a few, jigs and power tools make a lot of sense. And, regardless of the level of the master luthier that wags a finger at me, I'll still enjoy the guitar.

Millions of acoustic guitars will be sold this year, maybe a couple thousand would qualify as (mostly) "hand built", and maybe a couple of hundred of those will be "hand built using only hand tools." That final group of guitars will either be purchased at a huge premium by collectors or very affluent players, or will stay with the luthier or within the luthier's circle of friends. However romantic the notion, Luddites building guitars for resale is counter to business logic. And, the addition of the skills necessary to properly use power tools and to build jigs does not negate the skills of using hand tools - they go hand-in-hand.

Ervin waxes on, "...there is, everything considered, rather little focus -- at least in print or on tape -- on anything touching on things like fruition/achievement, the learning curve, maturation, the larger perspective, context, or any sense of culmination, personal expressiveness, creative pleasure or spiritual satisfaction, and meaningful pursuit of quality." Maybe it's not leaking out into industry publications or on the how-to DVDs, but visit any of the luthier forums, or better yet, visit any of the luthiers active on these forums and you'll see that is not at all true. There is a great deal of all of those aforementioned attributes, and a huge amount of passion.

Just for the record, when Ervin states "...the most significant innovations...Bill Cumpiano's ergonomic tapered-body designs...", wasn't that Linda Manzer's innovation?

It is my understanding that Ervin Somogyi creates some of the finest sounding guitars on the planet, period. So, I certainly don't see him as a pretender to the throne. However, that particular article seemed a lot more like the thoughts of a wistful and somewhat tunnel-visioned grandpa than an industry spokesman.


I agree.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I haven't read Ervins' article, would like to, but here's a little technology twist.

I don't do much numerical control programming anymore, I do some as I have a little cnc router. When I was out of school in the early eighties I went to work for one of the big aircraft companies, McDonnel Douglas. I worked in the lofting / tooling group. Our function was to define the surfaces and program very large multiaxis mills to cut those surfaces. While we were able to define the surfaces on an CAD system, we had had to program the tools in a language called APT. It's very similar to fortran, and it's flying blind, no graphics. It could be very difficult at times as you didn't want to crash a multi-million dollar machine or ruin a bunch of material and your working in 5 axis.
I found this work very challenging and rewarding.
Now I can do all of this graphically and I can teach almost anyone to it, in a matter days ( BillyT will chime in here saying yeah but need to know how to use the tools, and I completely agree with him).
So for me numerical programming no longer has the challenges and rewards associated with it as technology advancement has made it so much easier. Does this advancement make worse tools? Obviously the answer is yes, I mean no. I just wish it meant yes, as I then would be in a select group of people who can pull the task off, like I use to be in the 80's.

On the up side, I have a pc running Solidworks and VX , plus a cnc router in my shop. That would have never happened in the 80's. And yes I enjoy having them. I think of them as the ultimate in flexibility, partly because the programming has become so easy.

Ervin is definitely at the top of the guitar building game and has a customer base that appreciates his hand work. Hand skills are great. Most of my guitars have been built solely with hand tools btw, but my router will get busie, believe me.

It's not the tools that make a great guitars, it's the builders understanding of the instrument and materials.

Just some thoughts.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com