Official Luthiers Forum!

The builder and what is being built for. Looks, stage, collection, rich guys who buy guitars because of the name, what is reason buying. I think agreeing with Rick here, and mean too. I know builder who builds for pro's and their main concern is the sound and playability, and duribility. They sure want them to look good, but they are not taking a 10K guitar on the road. They want a tool that si going to last and be a working tool. Sure they will buy and do buy the higher priced stuff but for collection or studio work or other reasons, where they can control the enviroment of the guitar and keep it nice. Others he builds for are for different reasons. Lot of rich guys just buy the name, and know getting a great playing and sounding guitar, but want or like the higher end price and appointments. They may play a little or for fun, church, many reasons, but not wanting a tool, but a collection item, investment, or just really great guitar and don't mind paying the price.

Name means a bunch. You could I think take a builder,say Rick with his name on and put that on the market (whatever medium) and then put a different name on one (ok mine) built by him. Same woods, appointments, whatever, just different names and logos on same venuses, Which one do you think will bring the highest price? I know the answer, not mine. Want the big dollars, build the name, and prove it over time.

I have to agree that the most important determinant of the price once you get past 'average' is the name on the lable. So, how does one get to be a 'name'? I used to think it was pretty much just luck; a 'name' player happens to like your guitar and you're there. It's much more than that, though. The people who have really made it have had the chops to back up their luck. Jeff or Ervin or Jim have been able to make really fine guitars, over and over again, and to do so at a decent clip. They also tend to be better salemen than I am. Rick's right in saying you need to get to where you can grind out a really nice instrument fairly fast, and be able to get it into the hands of good musicians; then you're ready for the lightening to strike.

Are their instruments 'that much' better? It depends on how you look at it. Remember, we're working with great designs here, things that have been perfected by generations of smart people. As I said in another thread someplace, it's like being in the Olympics. The guy who loses the 100 meter dash could smoke most runners, let alone an old fat guy like me, any day. The difference between the loser and the winner in an elite competition is measured in hundredths of a second. It's the same way with guitars. The objective difference between a 'good' and a 'great' guitar is tiny: I don't think we can measure it. But to a great player it's everything.

And the difference between a good guitar and a great one can be $15,000.00 to $20,000.00 if it's got the right name on it...

Nobody who consistently gets the big bucks for their guitars does not deserve it. Those big bucks are earned with every new instrument that goes out the door. I haven't seen any flame-outs among luthiers who stayed reasonably sober and alive and in good mental health. Their work just goes up in price.

Another aspect that I think is missing in this thread so far is that many of these top end luthiers are innovators. Think Charles Fox, Grit Laskin, Linda Manzer. Most of the high end guys I deal with do not build direct Martin or Gibson copies. They have adapted innovations and designs that allow themselves to become branded! Is some of those innovations smoke and mirrors? Well the jury is probably out on that but none the less, they have something different in the guitar making schedule. Another aspect for the high end market is the guitar brokers....they are the true "branders". You can see it "You need to check out this new builder, he is among the best but not well known, get your guitar before his prices exceed your price range!" Then 2 years later the spin is "We have sold 6 of this builders guitars in the past two years and they are the best of the best, well worth the top end on the guitar pricing index!" Same guy, probably immeasurable difference in the guitars, but great marketing has allowed for a quick escalation in his prices!

Just my musing.....

Shane

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Canada

Another take on it is to compare it to the world of professional musicians. There is a much bigger discrepency between the star power there than there is with builders. As mentioned, the folks getting the big bucks for instruments at least all have chops. In the musician world, there are millionaires who can barely play or sing and virtuosos who are broke.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I agree.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Hello, One and All--I'm not a luthier; I'm one of the guys that buys the guitars that you all make. I think I would be somewhat careful about deciding who is and who is not a real guitarist. I think I'm a real guitarist. I try to play at least an hour a day and more on weekends. I go to guitar camps. I write and record my own music. I happen to have a love affair with the acoustic guitar; I have some disposable income. I think a fine guitar is about the best thing a guy/gal could hope to buy, something that will bring joy to the mind and the soul. I don't have cars or boats or vacation homes or country club memberships. I have guitars, lots of guitars, which I cherish and care for with great passion. Seems to me there are a lot worse things to get involved with in life. I don't think I'm a snob or a bore or a hopelessly inept musician trying to be something I'm not by owning beautiful instruments. I hope you all feel this way, too. Best, Jack Wills

Jack, I don't think any insult was intended...collectors can be and certainly are "real" guitarists. I think some of the guys were referring to professional touring and recording musicians.

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

Jack thanks for that! At the end of the day the most successful Luthiers will have the greatest understanding of what is critical to quality (CTQs in Six Sigma speak) to players like you.

I think that many of you (players) are primarily in search of that special tone once the basics of fit, finish, and playability are all there too. Although many people buy Martins based on the historic success and legacy of Martin others are still searching for the magic tone that they can't find in a commercial off-the-shelf instrument. This is the market that successful Luthiers will address IMHO.

I say provide superb tone and they will come.

This is not to underestimate the value of branding either, branding is certainly very important. But at the end of the day no matter how likable, brilliant, innovative, eccentric a builder may be - if their guitars don't sound superb they are not going to realize as much success as the builders who do provide superb sounding guitars.

Dedicated amateurs and semi-pros are supremely important to us. I think the issue here where a dividing line is to be found is the question of whether one makes their living playing guitar or not. Those are the players for whom very expensive guitars are often not an option unless they are a John Mayer, David Crosby, or my main patron, Lindsey Buckingham...who has bought 19 instruments from me. Many of my customers are guys like Stephen Bruton...a player few outside of Texas have heard of, but who is a killer player and songwriter. He can't afford $10,000.00 guitars...

Maybe we were being a little loose with the language. I think the point was that guys in "working" bands would have a very hard time cost justifying a $12,000 - $20,000 guitar.. and that doesn't even get into all of the other problems you would have trying to amplify and care for a lightly built instrument in these hostile environments.

I don't think amateur implies "no good". I have ran into plenty of monster guitar players who simply do it for their own enjoyment.

Sorry if I gave that impression.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Well said Brock, and my feelings exactly. I hope I portrayed that in my previous post. People like Jack have been mybread and butter customers.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Once pricing has ascended through the levels dictated by materials, design and musical utility it reaches a realm more familiar to art collectors than musicians (not that I am claiming that guitars are "Art"......... that is a different discussion).
That is, the value becomes based upon who made it, who sold it and who bought it. These factors determine value over and above what one would expect based upon the mere physicality of the instrument.

I didn't say "couldn't afford"... I said "hard to justify". If you use the guitar to make a living (or an income, if not a living) there are a range of other considerations that factor into what guitar you choose. I would think durability would be at or near the top of the list.

Yes, you're right. Classicals are expensive by steel string standards and a lot of players use these as their working instruments. I was referring to steel strings though.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com