Official Luthiers Forum!

Sorry, Chris. I understand now. Even cooler!

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Mike Doolin must have done something similar, Chris. It sounds like a good idea, but I do know that he does use a neck tenon so I'm not quite sure how he would have put the bolt inside the tenon.
Mike S., the dovetail cover is really nice. Clean work, too. But it wouldn't be able to put enough pressure on the spring washers to compress them. Remember, Mike uses a spring washer on each side of the bolt head. When you make a neck block with the captured bolts you really have to clamp it together hard to compress those washers, and the bolts are held quite tight in there.
You know, I have talked to a lot of people about this neck joint, and showed them how to do it. This "captured bolt" thing is the one thing that people have a hard time getting, and most show resistance to the idea. More people- in fact probably most of them- resist doing it that way, and eliminate one or both of the washers in favor of some other "simpler" way. They seem to thuink it's hard, or not needed, but it works better if you take the time to do it.
But in most of these other ways, the neck will move and flop around when the strings are off. With the captured bolts it stays rock solid. And Chris, I think if you just did the lower bolt that way, the neck would still move around a bit at the top bolt. Mike does say to loosen it just a little bit when you adjust it.

_________________
Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

It puts plenty of pressure on the washer, I promise . And Doolin only does one washer per bolt, at least in the GAL article, which is what I have done as well. On the bottom one it's on the outside of the bolt, so it's between the bolt and the cover. The curved washer I'm using is also only .011" thick. It compresses easily enough but still provides good resistance when turning the bolt, and serves its main function of keeping the neck from being loose when the strings are off.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Mark, with all due respect, I haven't found that to be the case. I can tighten the top bolt really tight, and still easily adjust the bottom bolt. Otherwise it would kind of defeat the purpose of having the bottom bolt be adjustable on the outside.

Granted, I've only tested this with a couple prototypes using a clamp to simulate string tension, but I feel pretty confident about it. I'll soon see how it works in the "real" world.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Here's a picture of mine that adjusts from the outside. Works a treat.

It's a stainless M6 cap head screw that goes into a t-nut in the neck block. All pieces are easily replaced if the need should ever arise. I machined a bronze furl that is inset into the neck so that the base of the screw has bronze to bear against, not wood.

_________________
Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Allen, that's really nice looking.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

That does look great, Allen. But using a T-nut won't allow the nut to move as you change the neck angle, and the angle of the bolt does change a little bit as you do that. That's one of the nice things about the barrel nuts, they rotate.
I took a look at AL#86, the one with Mike Doolin's article in it. And it looks like Mike S. is correct! Mike D. just uses one washer for each bolt there. But when he showed me how to do it he was using two, unless I am just crazy (which is of course a possibility) or maybe even just wrong (Also a good possibility)...but I wouldn't have thought of that idea myself so I think that Mike D. just revised his method a bit to only use one bolt.

_________________
Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

The barrel nut was a consideration but I chose this, as the system I'm using has about 1.5° of adjustment for the neck angle. There is either enough slop in the treads of the t-nut, or in the hole that is drilled slightly oversize in the furl. Don't know which. Perhaps it's a combination of both. Plenty of adjustment for humidity fluctuations in the top, which is what I designed this for.

If you use the barrel nut, it will potentially give heaps more adjustment. Just not as easy to replace a barrel nut if it's embedded in a neck block should the need arise. Ease of adjustment and serviceability were my 2 design considerations.

_________________
Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

A picture is worth a thousand words. I made up a mock neck tenon to show how I plan on making the lower captured bolt. I hope this explains things.

Mark, I was worried about not using a barrel nut too. I tried it with a threaded insert though and it works fine. Like Allen said, it might be that there's just enough slop in the threads. I don't know, but I was kind of surprised at how well it works!

Anyway, thanks for your input. I am reconsidering the long term viability of the dovetail cover. It works great now, but may lose its "clamping" strength over time. Of course it's not like the neck joint would fail or anything, it would just let the neck be floppy without the strings.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

And next.

One more view. And you could either trim the bolt to length before or after it's set. I had to sand the head of the bolt as it was a little larger diameter then 5/8" but those things can be worked out.

I also was looking over AL #86 and saw where Mike drilled the bolt holes out to 5/16" which I will then do too. He also waxes the bolt heads to prevent squeeking when turning the bolts and also waxes the tenon for the same reason. I'll also add that to the do list.

The wax is a great idea. My tenon squeaks quite loudly when I adjust it. At first I though I had snapped something. I pulled the strings off, then the neck, and had a good look at everything. Realized it was just was as you described.

_________________
Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Here is a plan of my captured screw system. Couldn't be more simple .The locking nuts allow the system to easily be readjusted should any slack ever arise. Cut just enough out of the bottom of the tenon to allow room for the locking hex. nuts ,which still allows the tenon to be full length.

To have the bottom hole in the headblock , line up properly, drill that hole (with neck attached and captured screw removed ) through the heel's captured screw's hole.

Also note , I have since changed from a barrel nut to a T-Nut for ease in alignment and replacement ( should that ever arise !)

N.B.___All I ask is for those using it, is to give me that recognition !




The look of the T-nut looks a bit crap in my opinion , so I put a cap on it ,thus :



I carefully measured my T-Nut to have 1 1/2 degree of angle play in it's thread ( more than enough required )

The Ferrule :
Out of 1/2" Brass dowel , I drilled out a stopped hole with a flat bottom for the captured screw to bear against. Thus :



The captured screw is a 6 mm. stainless hex head ( Buffed ) Round over the edge of the brass ferrule



Cheers to all , CRAIG LAWRENCE

_________________
CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________

I had Emailed Mike Doolin and he looked over my approach to the capture bolt and this was his return email.

Hi Chris,

Looks good! Hint: for the access hole in the heel, Telecaster string
ferrules make a nice clean look, I think they're 5/16". See
http://www.doolinguitars.com/client/mmullin/cutaway.jpg.

Mike

Does anyone have a link or copy of the article mentioned here? This is very interesting.

As the neck pivots, what happens with the fingerboard extension? Are the shoulders of the heel recessed into the body?

http://www.luth.org/
Follow this link and order a back issue of the American Lutherie #86.
Yes it is recessed . The fretboard tongue is either attached or suspended with carbon rods inbedded to support it.
This link to Mark Swanson's Fatboy will also help with your questions.
http://www.mimf.com/library/swanson_fatboy_v2.htm

Chris,

What type of drill motor and bits are you going to use? None that I have seem able to fit into the guitar far enough to accomplish all the holes. Maybe I'm missing something, please let me know.

_________________
Dean

I don't know what to tell you here Dean. I have no idea what you are doing or how you are approaching this. I'm no expert as I have yet to do one. I have just read several articals and designed a jig that I think will work great with this system. I've pretty much posted everything I know here or at the MIMF discussion. But as far as bits go I 've so far just used everyday bits about 5" or so long and a 5/8" forstner bit and a battery drill. If you need longer bits then I guess you will have to get longer bits.

Chris,
I was not referring to making the jig, but to putting it to use inside a semi-completed guitar. Sorry for the confusion. Can you get to the barrel nut holes?

_________________
Dean

If you go with putting the lower bolt captured in the heel then there is only that barrel nut in the neck block. The upper bolt and the set screws are adjusted from the inside of the guitar. As to how and install the lower barrel nut I have a couple of ways I'm going to try and haven't decided as of yet which one I will do. Go here and read through this.
http://www.mimf.com/cgi-bin/WebX?50@219 ... @.2cb67d01
When my sand paper for my dishes arrives, hopefully tomorrow, I'll be sanding my rims and when I go and drill out the neck block I'll try and post some pictures.

G'day Chris ,

Take a good look at my plan above . The captured/.adjuster screw bears against a brass ferrule which not only increases the bearing surface area to 1/2 " but also distributes the area further to the walls of the ferrule as it is epoxied into the heel. Another advantage is that the (stainless ) screw could easily be replaced if the need should ever arise. Any play in the captured system is easily taken out by tightening the locking hex. nuts. My system is so simple and foolproof it's ridiculous !.

Like I said above , All I ask is that I receive credit from those using it

Like you , I originally had a barrel nut in the design, but this made it more difficult to line up ,and more importantly, replace if necessary.

A T-Nut has enough angle play in it's thread to handle the task.


CRAIG LAWRENCE

_________________
CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________

It posted twice , sorry guys


CRAIG LAWRENCE

_________________
CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________

Chris,
I should have added that there is no need at all for a template with this method . Once you have your neck angle approximatley worked out, with your top bolt in place, place a small off-cut of plastic ,wood or whatever between the bottom of the tenon and headblock mortice to hold that approximate neck angle.
Remove the captured screw , and using it's hole through the heel as a drill bit guide , drill through the headblock. This will give you the exact placement AND ANGLE of the lower headblock hole.

Place the T-Nut in that hole from through the soundhole with a little Epoxy.


Cheers , Craig Lawrence

_________________
CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
_____________________________________________