Official Luthiers Forum!

Exactly. I design machinery that gets used and abused, gets covered with oil and starts to stink. And then goes to the scrap yard.

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Horton, MI

I'd like to take this back to thoughts on "Why?"

I used to build stained-glass windows - the old pulled lead-channel style. I found this to be very therapeutic and a much better way to spend my time than sitting in from of the TV (my opinion). Somewhere along the line I lost interest. Maybe it was small pieces of glass out in the open with babies running around

Fast forward almost 30 years - and I find myself an empty-nester - and spending too much time on the couch.

Like many long-time players, I thought it might be "cool" to build my own guitar - so I asked around about classes and ended up connecting with Kevin Gallagher. I really had no idea what I was in store for - but over the 2 years it took to actually get to the point of taking the class I learned about OLF and hung around reading may of the post by all of you. I began to learn quite a bit just by reading online posts and documents I would find online.

The class was an experience I will never forget - and that week was a life-changing experience for me. I felt like I had found something that gave me great joy - and something I could do as a hobby, with my son, for many years to come

After the class - (with my son) we got bitten hard by the bug. Kevin gave us great props for having "good hands, good eyes, good tool skills for newbies, and good attention to detail)

Why??? Because I found that it gives me GREAT joy. GREAT satisfaction. GREAT challenge (which I love in life). And a GREAT way to spend time with my 22 year old son.

And I'm not sitting on the couch watching Seinfeld reruns!

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

I think Don has a really good point here. Sure, your output may not come close to Taylor, but handmade guitars and factory guitars are two different markets and the reality is that there is competition in the handmade guitar market. We're not living in an era where people limit themselves to buying things from the local businesses and unless customers are for some reason unwilling to order a guitar from a luthier somewhere else and have it shipped to them, you're in direct competition with other luthiers for potential commissions.

Brock, I can totally relate to your post....


Also, I wanted to know why to start a business so soon.....not why you build guitars. I know we all do it for the love of building, the relaxation, etc...

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I know I'm probably throwing myself out to the wolves here, but...

I'm currently building my 2nd guitar and it's being sold. I'm selling for material cost plus a little extra for my time and the customer is a long-time friend of the family.

I declined a few times telling him that though I'd like to sell in the future, I hadn't planned on doing it until I had a few more under my belt. I also told him that with my first child due soon (any day now!), I couldn't promise him any sort of delivery date. His response was "So what, I don't care. Build it anyways." So I am.

My reason for accepting was simply that it's hard to justify money (and time) going into this (especially to my wife) and nothing coming back. Plus I just love building and I do beleive that I can build him a better instrument than he'll likely get for the same money at a guitar store anyway.

-Clint

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-Clint Beacock

Brock,

That's exactly what appeals to me about building, and I can't continue to build if I don't sell a few along the way.

I've worked with computers in some capacity nearly all my working life, starting in 1972. Some of it was in Silicon Valley during very heady times. But EVERYTHING I did for Apple Computer has been tossed out or been rendered obsolete by the pace of change in technology. I got tired of working my tail off, knowing that what I was doing would have no meaning in two or three years. A sense of accomplishment was good for a few days on the completion of some project, before we'd start on the next one. But my real passions have always involved working with my hands.

Building guitars has another dimension that even woodworking lacks. Not only can I build heirlooms, I can build heirlooms that make music. Some even call what I build works of art, but I think that's a stretch!

So, there's the hook for me. Something tangible that's pleasing to the ear and eye, that could be passed down through generations. By selling, it's a way to share and a way to keep building.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Mine is reality... your's is theoretical.

Seriously though. I see why you would think this, but it is wrong. None of us directly compete. True. You may see a prospect you were talking to go across the street and buy 2 guitars from Lance - that happens, and I say good for him. This is only competitive if **** I **** can't sell everything I produce. This is not a you win, therefore I lose type of market - there simply isn't the inventory to worry about those kinds of issues. We all can be big winners. My great suspicion is most of the market we are sopping up are the customers who would have likely bought a high end prodution guitar, or a boutique guitar (collings, SCGC, etc.).

In a world of 7 billiion people (or a country of 300 million) there is ALWAYS a market for my 12 - 15 gutiars per year. I don't care "which" people buy my guitars so long that my entire production is sold. And with the ability to produce so few guitars per year, none of us have to worry about other "luthier" competitors. THEY WILL NOT HURT YOUR BUSINESS (provided you have a lick of sense with regard to marketing).

... and there's the rub.

In my observation many (dare I say most) guitarmakers are terrible marketers. And frankly, mine isn't great either, but it is good enough to sell everything I can build -- but I am working on it. There is ALWAYS a market for your guitars if you do even a half way decent job at marketing.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I have found the opposite, especial with repeat customers.
I have three customers that have ordered multiple guitars. One customer just ordered his 4th, (third of this year) another customer has ordered two more after taking delivery of his first, and just last week I took a commission only to have the same customer call me up and order a second a week later.

To add to that I have taken multiple orders from first time customers this year as well. As poor as the economy is, we all find a way to buy what makes our heart content.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

With the exception of monopolies, every business is in competition. Just because you happen to move your inventory doesn't make this any less true. Even if there are enough customers to go around, you are in competition for WHICH customers you get and WHICH commissions come to you. Everything isn't equal so there is actually a winner and loser in each circumstance. Sure, you may not care if the customer walks across the street and buys something from someone else, but ultimately that's a customer you lost and someone else gained, hence a loser and a winner. Yes, you may have another customer but what if the customer you get is willing to spend $2000 on his guitar while the customer that walked out earlier was willing to spend $4000? Obviously even though in quantity of guitars sold and number of customers received, the two customers are equal, in actuality they are not.

Yes, there are 7 billion people in this world and 300 million in this country, but how many are in the market for a handmade guitar vs. the number of handmade guitars that all the luthiers in the world have the capacity to produce? If you think about it, you'll realize that the market isn't as good as you really may think. I think that you're looking at this very subjectively. Just because it's something that you don't happen to perceive doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Since first learning about lutherie, I've met several people that don't build for a living simply because they say they would starve to death if they did. Obviously the market wasn't there to support these people and the demand wasn't there for the guitars they made. Many have since settled on doing maintenance and repair work and are doing ok, but they could not make a living building guitars. If there truly was such a large demand to meet everyone's output and if it really was a non-competitive environment, why can't some people make a living and why do some people struggle to make sales? I think it's clear that either the market isn't all that big and it's probably saturated around a relatively small group of people in comparison to the number of potential builders out there.

I haven't started any type of business as honestly, I'm quiet sure I'll never be able to make the same amount of $$ building guitars as I do as a professional real estate appraiser. The day job pays the bills+ and guitar making will pay for the shop, tools and material to keep going.

My plan is to have something to keep me busy when I retire (not for a long time yet as I'm a youngen still ) and If it ever gets to the point where I have so much interest in my guitars that it can take the place of the day job, well maybe than I will make that switch.

The real reason though that I sell (I generally sell right now to friends/family for cost plus) is to keep my passion for building alive and also that I don't need more than 2 guitars of my own. Heck, I've only got two hands to play with

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

BTW, I totally didn't answer the question about aspirations. Yes, I want to intially sell early builds as a way to fund further builds and maybe get some new tools, but I do hope to eventually become a professional luthier and build for a living. Hopefully I won't starve to death... because I really like food.

Here are my thoughts, as someone who has seen a lot of "firsts". I have taught an electric guitar building class for two years now, and I have TA'd and watched Robbie O'Brien teach his classical and steel string classes for three years. I'm not trying to name-drop or show off here; just saying I've seen a lot of first time guitars. I have seen students make some wonderful guitars on their first try, but I have NEVER seen one that I consider worthy of selling for more than the cost of materials, and even that is rare. Now, maybe I'm just a bad teacher but I'd like to think not, and I certainly think that Robbie is a GREAT teacher. Even people with lots of woodworking experience, they just don't know how to do the setup perfectly yet. Even with a good teacher, it takes practice. And they definitely don't know how to control tone yet. Maybe I'm also too critical, but I think I'm just realistic and cautious.

I would not dream of selling my first guitar, or my second. I sold my third or fourth for the cost of materials, and I wish I hadn't. I see it from time to time, and it's a fine guitar, and plays great, but the waterbased finish has shrunk back a great deal, and I think it now looks kind of like crap. I'm only now getting to the point where I want to sell guitars for full price. I say this as someone with good woodworking skills too, and who has apprenticed with both builders and repairmen.

Another thought is that your eye (at least mine) improves greatly with each build. When I built my first one, I thought it was f**king awesome! I thought I was ready to sell the next one! Now when I look at that guitar, I cringe. It's still a cool guitar, and I'll always love it, but I see all the flaws that I didn't see back then, and I would not want it out in the public! I thought that for a lot of guitars, but fortunately I (mostly) heeded the advice of many great builders on this forum. The level of work out there is just so incredibly high. Your mom and your friends might think your guitar is totally ich' and great, but they probably haven't seen a Kevin Ryan, or a McPhereson, or a Collings guitar.

I think this really ties in with what Hesh said about going to a guitar show to see what you're up against. Have a well respected pro who's not afraid to be honest critique your guitar. Every guitar I build makes the previous one look less glorious than I originally thought it was, but that has mostly tapered off, which is why I feel ready to sell at full price.

Just my $.02

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Piling on...

You know we tend to project our current economic outlook onto others. As bad as any of us may believe things are there are always folks out there doing well.... and there is always a sufficiently large population of folks for whom money is not a day to day worry.

again 12 - 20 guitars a year...

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

What did I say? Because some people suck at (or won't take the time to properly invest in) marketing. Then, they blame the economy, competition, currency exchange rates, the weather, whatever for not being able to "make it". That is a pretty lame excuse if you ask me. The market is there all you have to do is find it. We have a product that people LOVE, they are enthralled with the idea of hand built guitars, it is the dream of many (most?) to one day own a custom built instrument ---- tell me again? WHY can't everyone find a market for their guitars?

Either, the guitars are not good (harsh but worth of consideration) or the proper marketing is not in place. And as I said... on balance guitar makers are pretty s&&ty marketers. If I had a $ for everytime I heard someone say I ran some ads in XYZ magazine and got "nothing" from it I could be well stocked in nice wood. That's the extent of most people's "marketing" a couple of ads, maybe a forum sponsorship, a web site, and occassionally a t-shirt... and that is for the really agressive guys. Most who I know don't do any marketing to speak of.

A good product won't cause the world to beat a path to your door. We all know that. You have to market yourself, and if you do, and put the work in... just like you do on your guitars you will be successful. (All this is operating under the presumption that your guitars are good).

Competiton implies that there is more supply than demand. If I win a sale I have "taken" it from another builder. That is only true if there aren't enough sales to go around. There are plenty of sales, you just have to go find them... they aren't going to just wander in.

... and on the comment about "not being able to make a living" or "starving" doing this full time. Take a look at who is saying that. Many (most?) have high paying jobs (many in the six figures) and what they are saying is they can't make enough to live in the style to which they have become accustomed. Ok. Nothing wrong with that. I hear the same comment from people who have always dreamed of owning their own business but never take the plunge. It is tough... I understand.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

There is still the basic question here of when do you go "pro" and make this your living or start selling "part time" to get there.

I am lucky I don't have to build to pay for the bills. I don't have to advertise with websites or whatever for sales, but that isn't the norm. I have built enough and learned enough for a market and get more than want or need for profit, which I then turn to the non profit. I will probably keep doing it that way, but I have sort of a unique situation. Point is, if I don't keep put all the profits back into the shop and to do other stuff, I still have enough of a market to do that without marketing as my customer base has come also from the non profit base. I would not in any manner suggest this to others.

Back to the main point however. There may be those who can do a few builds and decide to quit the day job and go full blast. But that may be one in a thousand. One better have all thier ducks in a row before hanging out the shingle. Brock is right there is a market and those pro's who have made it are still doing well. I know as I know some of them. Thing is they have been through both the good and tough times. Think make a great guitar after one or two or a dozen, go to a show and "compete" there. Might do well, but more apt to get your butt kicked in fit finish sound playability or whatever. May gripe that show was a junk thing because didn't get sells or make many contacts and wonder why. Reason is you may not be there yet to do that. This is just reality and idea of getting there quick is not that much of a reality. Good thing is, it is your right and choice when to go for it, so that is something each person has to determine. To think this isn't a competitive business, I guess each to their own, I just think different. One way and why most get more customers is to get that name player for endorsement, and not just the local good player. I have heard that that one player made them as a go to guy to have a guitar built. Thing is, you never know when that kid, vet or local may become a household name and then wants to endorse your product and then off to the races.

What is a luthier is what Hesh in my opinion is right on. David Collins, Kevin and my mentor and bro Bill Moll and others here (please forgive if didn't include name, but you know who you are as do most of us). Before going "pro" in his own shop he had years of experience. He spent years in the violin area and bow making. I always thought if bought a fiddle the fiddle bow came in the case. Was I ever surprised at that market and cost there. The pro players, playing high end violins pay big money for the bow. That said, one just doesn't start putting bows together either. It is a most demanding process. He also spent years repairing and restoring violins, guitars, cello's you name the stringed instrument. Do that your a luthier, building guitars makes you a guitar builder like me.

Don't go on my plan though as you will go broke, it is just what has been my own experience and not the norm or right way. Maybe someday will do a website to get my website son and son in laws of my hind end about not having one. Just don't need it. Also, my market is probably not one most would want and in its own nitch, but keeps me more busy than want or need to be.

How many guys have you seen build two or three guitars and then construct an elaborate website, call the newspaper to do a story on them, get the TV station to come out to their shop, make extravagant advertising claims, and then list their guitars for $3500.
Sure you can do it and will probably even get a few sales, but there’s no substance behind the hoopla and odds are things will eventually come crashing down and it’ll be hard to bounce back and regain a reputation.
Can you sell your early guitars? Sure! Sell them for the cost of materials (or less) to people you know and be upfront about your experience. Then gradually ease in to higher prices as you progress. Get expert unbiased opinions from owners of boutique guitar shops and professional players as to the quality of your builds and adjust your prices and marketing hype accordingly. Go Slow.
Ego gratification definitely plays a role. (If you are honest with yourself we’ve all been there.) People think luthiers are cool and being a builder gives you status in some circles. Al Eisentraut the legendary bicycle frame builder (another perceived “romantic” occupation) pretty well summed it up in an interview years ago.
“I go to a cocktail party and see guys there saying they’re frame builders when I know they haven’t built a thing. What’s the point, it won’t get you laid.”

Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I've sold some....

Some were commissioned by friends, some by folks who saw what I'd done on forums, some I'd just built then stuck on ebay.

why did I sell them?

to clear space and liberate funds.

was I honest that they weren't Lowden standard? YUP

did I charge Lowden type money? Nope, cost plus a few pennies.

and if the customer didn't like it for ANY reason?

full refund. (happened once no big deal)



My aspirations have almost been met.

to have a stable of decent guitars all made by me.

12 string, 00, Jumbo, electric bass, acoustic bass, bouzouki, electric 6 string & mandolin

I've started an archtop, so once THAT's done? maybe an archtop mando or a fretless bass for myself, unless someone comes along and asks for something.

as to the term luthier?

I'm a hobby builder of stringed instruments. that makes me a hobby luthier, My blog is called Martin Edwards Luthier because if someone is searching for luthier blogs, then maybe they'll find mine. I know that I'll never give up the day job, and I don't want to

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

There are 2 types of instrument makers!
Those who want the world to recogonise them and those who just want to make instruments beacuase it feels good!

Brock wants to advertise-He's worked hard to make a quality guitar -some feel it's more important to prove your instruments worth BEFORE trying to sell them!
Prove them to the players !!
You can NOT trust yourself to judge your own works!!!

There is NOTHING wrong with the people that just enjoy instrument making-selling is not important!
BUT it sure makes you feel great!!!!!
Full time makers that want to stay on top of the market need to advertise!
Look at the makers that NEVER ran an ad!!!!!
AND are making a living!!!
That'list is to long to print!!!!!
Yes times have changed-BUT the quality of your work will make or break ya!!!!!


That's my 2 cents!!

Mike

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Mike Collins

Well. This thread is going several places at once. I think the original post is about when does a builder have the chops to start selling their instruments. I think that almost every response is correct from a certain perspective. I think that a lot of the old school builders sold their early instruments and that by today's standards they would be pretty shoddy. They sold them because they had to stay in business and their customers knew what they were getting. Of course the workmanship of a 70's Martin or Gibson was pretty shoddy too so it wasn't too hard to beat the standard. The old school builders have increased the level of craftsmanship to an almost unbelievable level and getting into the business now is very tough if you want to compare favorably with them.

If you need to sell to keep building, by all means, sell. If your buyers are happy, great. If you want to do this for the love of the art and a pursuit of excellence as a hobby, do that. If you want to start a guitar company, good luck, maybe you'll make it. There are many paths to take to the top of the mountain.

Where am I? I build for myself and can afford to do so. Closet space is becoming an issue, however. If someone likes one of my instruments and offers a good price for it, I'll sell it to them. I don't take commissions for two reasons. I don't have enough control over the tone of my instruments to be confident that I'll make the customer happy and I want to build what I like and not what others may want.

What is a luthier? Here are to analogies:

A luthier is to building musical instruments as an architect is to designing buildings.
A luthier is to building musical instrument as a golfer is to playing golf.

You can't call yourself an architect without the proper education and credentials. You can call yourself a golfer even if you only play golf a few times a year. We don't have a governing body that issues credentials for luthiers so the point at which someone becomes a luthier is not defined. I think it is fair for someone to use the term luthier in the same sense that we use the term golfer. I don't think that doing so is fraud since we don't have any other term for the concept of "one who builds stringed musical instruments". I have heard that ASIA toyed with the idea of becoming the governing body that would have to authority to certify someone as a luthier but gave up on the idea because of the effort, time involved, and legal issues.

By the way putting A.S.I.A and G.A.L on your business cards is misleading and almost fraud. It is similar to a trail guide putting "Member of the National Geographic Society" on their business card.

Just for the record... I was building for several years before I started selling.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

To start selling you instruments all you need are players to try them!
They will tell you if their good or so-so ;or great!
Not every instrument by any maker is always great!

You need player feed back!!!!
Search out the player you think might like your type of guitar!!!
Offer to come to where they are and let them decide if your works are what you think they are!!!
After all-Ads sell a mind set -or a mind you want to set!!!

Mike

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Mike Collins

I think the guys who have taken the time to market themselves and their guitars make a lot of sense. Those who have sweated through the guitar road trips and player evaluations are the ones I would be confident in buying from. But the dark side of what can happen when one enters the fray prematurely and becomes discovered is something that should generate caution to all who are considering going commercial.

Over the many years now that I've been hanging out with guitarmakers, I've come to realize that the vast majority have figured out the right time for each to sell their wares. There are a few who have ventured out way before their time. This always makes me nervous because their failure has the potential to ruin it for the great folks who participate honestly within the craft. In some of those cases, they have come crashing down and were made to realize quickly that they were not ready for prime time. In other cases, a builder might be so self-deluded that he fails to develop that inner voice that we all hope we have that demands more that we thought we could achieve and forces us to accept nothing less. They are tone deaf to that message and continue to build their house of cards with fluff, sizzle and personal hubris.

What has always bothered me about this is the fact that the pros are reluctant to call them out and only resort to ineffective "whispering campaigns" that do nothing as far as protecting the craft. Responsibility and blame even needs to include the organizers of some guitar shows where the only requirement is for the builder to have a pulse. A little more pride in the craft and a lot more attention to minimum skills would go a long way in forcing aspiring guitarmakers into achieving some basic objectives.

This is a good thread...thanks for starting it, Peter!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Lots of good replies...

I mean no offense when I say this, but I think it's odd that people make assumptions about what young (in terms of experience) builders can and cannot do. My view is that (as some of the veteran luthiers on here are fond of saying) a job worth doing is worth doing right. So if a builder's fit and finish are up to par and they have some kind of knack for voicing, why shouldn't they charge $5000 for their instruments? If they genuinely believe that they can compete with companies (and individual builders) who are charging $5000 (and there are a lot), I say let them.

On the other hand, I think it's more likely that a new builder will get into trouble if they charge too little for their instruments. Personally, I don't see how a builder can charge $1200 for an instrument and expect to turn out a top notch product. I think charging $5000 or $3000 (or however much a builder can) means they'll actually have the money to fix mistakes, which all builders (veteran and newbie alike) inevitably make. At least that's the conclusion I came to when I decided to start offering instruments for sale.

I don't try to earn my living selling instruments and have tremendous respect for those who do. However, I decided to cross the "hobby" line when 1) musicians loved my instruments 2) an established luthier and guitar shop owner expressed respect for my work and 3) my wife-to-be forbade me to build any more guitars with our money. (My first was not sell-able, by the way. At least not by my standards.)

As for how much people can charge or how much people are willing to pay, I think that varies due to a number of factors, geography principle among them. It blows my mind what people will pay for a Somogyi or Traugott. And I live in the midst of a lot of rich people (in a very expensive town). That'll happen when surrounded by 11 million people. For luthiers in Los Angeles, I think Brock is absolutely right, the only challenge is how to market one's instruments.

The biggest challenge (IMHO) is to help people realize how good hand-built instruments tend to sound. That's something we could all benefit from. Unfortunately, even the small factories have bigger marketing budgets than most individual builders.

That's just my two cents and I mean no offense to anyone.

Cheers,

Flori

Well spoken Brock!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

You guys must not be too busy building to have all this time to write all this stuff.....



Sell whatever you want, for however much you can. If it allows you to build more guitars and progress with your skills, and the buyer is happy...good on ya. If you cross the line and sell something that is waiting to fall apart, then you get what you deserve.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com