Official Luthiers Forum!

I totally agree with you Rod. That is why I posted what I did, as I did not feel that the do-it-yourself crowd was getting any representation. The discussion appeared to be headed for the typical OLF pep rally for the sponsors.

Good question.

It sounds like these answers are debating whether machine assisted building or traditional building is right or wrong. Is there a right or wrong (moral quality) to design and creation?

The difference between absolutely hand made guitars and machine-assisted hand made guitars lay, I think, in the reward. Every action in life has a reward attached to it. Drink 22 beer every day and the reward is poor health. Exercise every day and the reward is good health.

In my view making all the parts for the guitar by hand with elementary tools brings about a different kind of reward than one in which you assign various tasks to a machine. Both are rewarding activities, but the quality of the reward is different. You can't talk about one being better thatn the other. That makes no sense. it does make sense to talk about the quality of the reward you have for building in a certain way. Everyone will answer differently. Not right, not wrong, just different. For some people, making 30 guitars a year is rewarding, for others there is the same reward in making two a year.

J

Barry, I don't see the mention of any sponsor in the discussion.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

It depends…
How about both?

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

John, no sponsors have been mentioned. My point is that a discussion about the legitmacy of using CNC products should probably not be heavily influenced by the commercial interests who stand to benefit. Is this an unreasonable position?

J welcome to the OLF!

As for the rest of ya - you guys need to learn to get along..........

Oh Boy! I am batting...like 1000! I did not know this was quite as controversal. Sorry to stir up the debates.

I beleive a handmade guitar should be handmade. I believe a custom made guitar can use any tools necesarry to give the buyer what he/she wants.

I also know at some point for me, at least the headstock/logo will be done via a CNC. Either from Mr Lynse locally, or by one of our sponsors. That seems to be one area that I don't think I can maintain consistancy in. I am practicing, but a CNC cut inlay route for words/fonts seem to be much better than by hand.

Joe

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Joe

I didn't see any commercial/olf sponsor connection either, and I don't think this was heading that way at all. Nor do I think that using cnc is heading down a slippery slope of any kind. I think there are those who use cnc because they understand the values and advantages of them to whatever degree. I for one am not trying to make money with my machine. In fact, I think it offers me some flexibility to do things that I couldn't do before, and also the ability to be far more accurate at it, and achieve higher standards. There's no way I cut make a neck as perfectly as a cnc can. So for me, this isn't at all commercial, although I do see advantages for if I should go back to trying to make money selling my guitars again.

Here's some food for thought:

If the Shakers were still producing furniture like they did at the turn of the last century do you think they would use cnc?
Answer....you bet they would. They were great innovators of machinery and the ability to do consistant and repeatable high level work. We all owe the circular saw blade to the Shakers, as well as a number of other commonly used items. And yet we think of them as purists of woodworking. Not.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to make parts by hand, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to program a cnc to make them. Different strokes...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

The fact that I can go make coffee while the CNC is making parts is the main justification.
I don't care what you guys say!
Maybe I could teach the CNC to make coffee?

Nelson, I'm glad to hear you say "coffee" instead of "beer". Otherwise, all the free time you get while the machine is running would give you too much opportunity to not know what to do with the part once it's finished.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

A big +1.

Just a personal thought here but we have no need to limit or censor anyone’s opinion as long as the forum rules are honored. Yes a sponsor may have may have a vested interest in a given topic. In my eyes that in its self is a darn good reason to hear what they have to say.

One or several members opinions posted in any topic can not have an influence on any other member or members opinions unless they choose to allow it to. If John, Bob or any other CNC operator should have something to say on this topic or any other toic that they may have a vested intrest in, they should always feel free to speak up.

There have been lots of topics I have written the unpopular side of the debate on here. A few in which I had a vested interest in and some were just logic based responces. No one has ever said I should not have a noticed voice in any of them. Despite the fact that in more than one of them I was a sole dissenting voice (sort of speak)

As long as I am a member here. Despite the fact I agree or not with someone I will always stand up for their right to share their opinion. In my eyes the only tolerable grounds for censorship are bad language, blatantly disregard of the forum rules and personal attacks

You know this topic is always a heated topic. And there is nothing wrong with strong opinions and heated debates. There is something wrong with censorship based on having a vested interest. If you take such a concept to its inevitable end, then this forum is over. You see we all have a vested interest in guitars and other stringed instruments here. We all have vested interest in open discussions, and under such a rule no one could share anything.

As long as you are up-front with the customer as to how the guitar is made then no problem CNC or handmade. Trying to call a guitar with a high proportion of it CNC'd parts (neck and bridge) handmade would be a little dishonest, custom made yes, handmade no. But if you are making guitars commercially to pay the bills then you have to do what is best for your business, if that is utilising CNC then use it.

For me, neck carving is one of my favourite jobs and I also like to occassionally use no powertools at all on an instrument using full pre-20th century methods, but that's just me. But it really is a matter for the individual builder to decide his own approach to guitar making.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Agreed! +1

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Joe

I just paid $120 for a router bit that will get me closer to one of the finished profiles I use for guitar necks. With it and a simple jig I can rough carve a profiled blank in about 5 minutes. I rough out the heel on the table saw. I try to do all the rough work by machine. CNC machines can go closer to a finished product than my simple machine tools. If it could do it as cheaply, I would probably go that route.
One thing that strikes me in Joe's original post was the disparagement of "assembly work". I have seen this implied in other posts and on other forums. Yet it is the assembly of the parts that makes all the difference. Whether made from perfectly hand shaped parts or perfectly CNC shaped parts doesn't make much difference if the guitar is poorly assembled. Many factories prided themselves on making "handmade" instruments. To a great extent I consider this "legitimate". The parts where fabricated my teams of craftsmen using the technology available to them and assembled and finished by hand. They were not built by an individual luthier or strictly with hand tools, yet they were still "handmade". Separating the best from the better ones it was the final "assembly work" that made all the difference.

It's not how you remove the sawdust from the part that matters; it is only what is left that is of any consequence.

The only way in which ethics enters into this is in terms of safety and advertising. Folks shouldn't be in any danger through the making or use of a product...and sellers should have an honest relationship with buyers.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Have a jointer - great to use instead of the No 7 Bailey...most times

Have a Drum Sander...great to use instead of the No 4 Lie neilsen smoother...sometimes...certainly quicker...

I would LOVE to have a small CNC...can't justify given my output...but if I had a lot of guitars to make, I'd have one...

unless you are approaching this like the Amish...its just another tool to get things done accurately and efficiently...

Nothing wrong with all the romance of watching a curl of wood roll up off the blade of a well tuned plane, but sometimes, you just have to get the work done...a CNC is just another way to make it all happen...

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Mitch

I asked a similar question one time about using an inlay artist like Craig Lavin to do inlay work instead of doing it yourself. The response was overwhelming that there was no problem with using someoneelse's art on your guitar.

I see no difference between that argument and this one except that for the most part I am dong myown programming, and set the machine up to cut what I want, when I want it. It gives me consistant results and saves me money on less wasted wood.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Don, I disagree with your statement. A CNC neck still has mill marks and fretboard overhang that need to be scraped/sanded. There's the same potential to ruin the neck profile as with one that was hand carved. I see no difference here.


Providing a shaker village could afford the investment…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

If I told you that my CNC is setup to bend sides to programmed shapes and do it flawlessly, would that get you interested?
Forgot to mention---no springback.

Laurent, allow me to clarify...

Yes, even a neck coming off a cnc needs some tweaking here and there. There's almost no way to do it perfectly, ready to assemble as it were, unless you hold to amazingly tight tolerances, but even then it will need some sanding. What I refer to is that it can do it with extremely high toleranced precision as far as the symmetry of the profile is concerned, and the heel etc. A really high end cnc such as a Fadal can make the need for sanding almost unnecessary, with the right programming. The reality is that I would make the neck profile a tad oversized and then modify it how I want it, or to blend the fretboard into it.
How close the neck coming off the cnc is to the final design has a lot to do with the amount of stepover of the bit in the CAM programming. I've seen products where you would be hard pressed to see any machining marks, and yet they were straight off the cnc that way. You'd be surprised what can be done, as opposed to what is usually done with a cnc. There are a number of factories out there producing parts via cnc that are hardly (if at all) touched by a human hand except to assemble, and the quality is consistant from one part to another.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Nelson, is this done ala Taylor? Ok, you have my curiosity piqued....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Only because this point has not been addressed yet:

It seems to me the most important thing about an instrument is it's sound and playability - i.e. its quality as an instrument. I can think of counterexamples (a guitar made as an art piece), but in general we are trying to make instruments.

It also seems to me the most important thing in creating a truly great instrument is making a lot of them. I'm using "great" in the way that Rick Turner uses it - I think I remember him opining that he has seen about 4 great instruments. there's no way my 20th guitar is "great" in that context.

So, if CNC lets you get a lot more guitars turned out, it seems to me you are both servicing the musician and your art. If it lets you avoid carpal tunnel syndrome (like I have), even better. If it lets you spend time on creating a beautiful, great instrument, perfect! If it lets you earn a living and not eat beans every day, awesome.

On the skill front, IMO I think I could train most people to carve a neck or bridge. Idon't think I could say the same about building, maintaining, programming, and running a CNC machine.

But, if you like the feeling that everything on the guitar was done by "hand", cool, I have no argument. Personally, I have never cut a rosette channel with a popsiscle stick, would prefer not to cut my binding channels with a chisel (I have to a small bit because I build classicals with the typical spanish heel, but do the majority with the router). It doesn't matter to *me* if the guitars I own were done with machines, jigs, or truly by hand, I never thought to ask.

The real clincher will be when someone markets a CNC sander. Everyone hates sanding...there's nothing romantic about it at all!

Most of us are suckers for seeing a nice curl of wood come off though...so I do understand the emotional pain the CNC sometimes evokes...

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

But how much would the cost per part increase for such precision? I've seen enough discrepancies between CNC made parts, so I assume also this system needs high maintenance. You still need to do the final sanding and IME this is the most time consuming.
I'm not for or against CNC, I think it makes sense for a fairly high output operation, mostly because of consistency and it is hard to (re)train people to do exactly the profile one wants for necks, bridges etc.
Personally I hardly imagine building more than 20 guitars/year, and even that would be a stretch…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/