Official Luthiers Forum!

+1 what Peter said about Stephane Grappelli.

Bob

Filippo, well put.
Let me tell you what it's about, with musicians.
I am one.
I pick up an instrument, be it acoustic, or electric,
and like it, or not.
When it sounds really good to me, I play better.
When I play one that doesn't sound good to me, nobody but me seems to notice.
So, if you are playing an instrument that "floats your boat",
for whatever reason,
and you can afford it,
go for it.

The results of blind listening tests depend in part on the capabilities of the particular listeners. Some years ago, when compact discs were new and much hyped, there were breathless announcements that in blind listening tests (music sources behind a screen) people couldn't tell the difference between live music and CD recordings. This paralleled similar announcements made a century before, when the cylinder phonograph was first invented: in blind tests people couldn't tell the difference between the Edison phonograph and live musicians.

I sympathize with those who are willing to believe, without personally investigating it, that Strads are just overrated. So many things are. Yet, some things that are reputed to be wonderful truly are, and it's a shame to be too skeptical--or too cynical--to give yourself the opportunity to experience the finest things our culture has to offer. I can't say if you'll have the same experiences I've had, but to those who have never heard a Stradivarius violin in performance, I recommend giving it a try.

_________________
Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

Wait... Stephane Grapelli played a strad? According to a "Strings Magazine" interview with him, a Montagnana was his favorite violin, and he also played a Nicola Gagliano and a Giofredda Cappa.
Benedetto made him a violin, too, modelled after a Guarneri. Pics of it are in "Making an Archtop Guitar".

Er, sorry, back to your regularly scheduled program....

cheers

I always figured one reason that might be palatable for believing Stads are actually better is because they get played in more than any other instrument. They start out good enough to be in the running, then a situation evolves where they are routinely entrusted to the best musicians of the age. These worthies not only play well, but loudly and constantly. So if you believe in playing in, then this could be a factor.

The thing about strad necks may have it's origins in the changes that happened in the instrument. It is still odd that these converted instruments remain the best. As if an interest in baritone guitars led to renecking older instruments, but they were still better than instruments designed as baritones. And it is still the case that these instruments are not whole whatever the reason.

I have no idea... whever Antonio was a genius or just another very good maker who got lucky... put a good instrument in the hands of an exceptional player and it will sing - same instrument in the hand of an average player and it may stink..

I have played a high number of 40s Martins - take the 00-17 - played a few and i make then sound like cardboard put together by a 4 year old in school art class - yet same instrument played with skill - maybe a little blues rag time picking, and they come alive in way that you just cant believe... and I end up green with envy lusting after the little beuties...knowing full well they dont suit my technique or style...

I own a small 1820s or so parlour, label is sadly missing, but appraised as Vienna built of that time... maple bodied with alovely patina and a sound that belies its size and looks...

When played by someone who knows what they are doing, it sounds very sweet.

I guess the point is that there are many factors at work here. Myth is certainly one, but myth is usually born out of some truth... however as some have pointed out, Stads have been considered great for a long time by many generations of musicians... but do they sound great because they have always been played by great musicians?

Sure the quality of construction is first rate..so they probably comapnded a high premium from new and found their way into the hands of the best musicians ..

But we can see today that quality of workmandship is no guarrantee of a great SOUNDING instrument...
looks can be deceiving

BUt heres a though... I have a friend and mentor who has now made 150+ classicals that command a high price now and are played internationally.

He has only kept one that he made... number 15 which he says was the first he made that he felt sounded good. But of course now on 150 there is no comparison... but interestingly he said something that made me think... he says he worries about older builds comming back in say number 50 or so, because he my find he no longer feels the quality is as good... yet it has his name on it... My response was... Are you not worried more that number 50 sounds BETTER than those you are building today?

The point being that they sound... having been played in by pros for 10 years +, made from BRW that is simply no longer available... ... and age is that mystery that imparts its own glories on the instruments.

Does a 1940s pre war D28 sound so good because of the way it was made.. or the materials used or the the fact that for most of us now, the only folk who can afford one are players we admire and are darn god at getting the best out of them... or that 70+ years have caused that fine wood to reach its full potential?

Add rarity, and hype and myth and the price becomes disproportionate...

Then add that other factor in supporting the myth... the famous endorsee... segovia has certainly helped the reputations for Hauser and Fleta... great makers for sure, but how much of their fine and deserved reputaions has been enhansed by that association?

The most expensive Les Paul in the world was made in a factory setting by workers who were not, strictly speaking, luthiers, and the tone of those guitars has now passed into Legend so that none are there equal, all based on the reputation of one Man, Jimmy Page.
'Nuff said!

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Old growth, shmold growth!

There have been numerous changes to the originality of a Strad violin .. the necks and the neck angle have been changed, the fingerboards extended, the neck joint changed from a butt/nail to a dovetail, the bridge and soundposts replaced, the tops regraduated, the bass bars replaced or regraduated, some have been skinned - thats where they thin the top till there is only about a 1/2 mm left, then recreate an internal replacement top piece to replace what they carved away... is whats left still a Strad ??? Cellos in Strad's day were smaller in size .. the Strad cellos we see today have been altered greatly - they have been taken apart and widened - the tops and backs made wider , the ribs lengthened - so is that still a strad ???

Food for thought - If someone did this to a prewar Martin - change the neck and fingerboard, tuners and nut, greatly change its angle, change its dovetail to a bolt on, shave/replace the bracing, change the bridge, all with non original parts, and not at the factory - would it still be a Martin ??? To most I bet it would - but then again, some also think that they are actually watching Fords racing Dodge each weekend on NASCAR.

Brad Gillis of Night Ranger likes to talk about his 62 Strat ... all thats left is the original body wood. Its been refinned, new neck, tuners, PUs, electronics, Floyd bridge .. yeah, its a 62 alright.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Oh, please - you give Jimmy far too much credit. Jeff Beck and Peter Green were playing Pauls before Page, and many other players of note made have music on Les Pauls for listeners who never heard of Zeppelin. No single player can claim to have elevated Les Pauls popularity.

I can remember when Ace Frehley remarked in a "Guitar Player" interview that you could rule the world with a Les Paul and a Marshall. Les Paul sales then went through the roof during a time when Strats were the big sellers (thanks to Hendrix, Blackmore, Clapton, etc., following your logic).

The same thing happened when Slash burst on the scene in the 90's. Everyone was playing some kind of guitar that had angles and points on them, and after Guns & Roses hit MTV curvaceous Les Pauls again enjoyed a resurgence in sales.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Some folks would even say Les Paul had something to do with it. And Freddie King? I don't know if Hugh Farr played a Strad, but if he did, that would be good enough for me.

As someone who really likes vintage Les Pauls, and who walked out in the middle of a Zep concert in 1970, I have to say, "Oy."

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

+1

_________________
Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Preach it, brother!

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

And Freddie King would be high on the list of reasons that Clapton played a Les Paul.

And Les Paul is high on the list of reasons that Les Pauls exist. (The Larson Brothers deserve mention--but they always deserve mention.) It's all evolution, and there's no such thing as progress. (I'd be the last person to say that a Les Paul is better than a Torres.) But some people really do change the game. I gather that Antonio Stradivarius, and some of his contemporaries, changed the game. Les Paul changed a lot of games: musical games, design games, recording games. I think all of the rock guitarists who've been mentioned would acknowledge his influence.

Les Paul was a genius who did far more for music than simply get a cool guitar named after him.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

The most expensive and highly sought after LesPauls are the ones from the years that Jimmy Page played, specifically.
Yes, there are artists BEFORE and AFTER Jimmy that played Les Pauls, but JIMMY'S year, model, and finish are the one's that command the hundreds of thousands of dollars price tag.
NOBODY plays the model Les Paul Himself actually played, the Les Paul Recording model, which is no more valuable than your standard vintage Les Paul, and far less popular.
The years and models that Freddie King, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, and all the rest played don't command the hundreds of thousands of dollars that the year, make, and finish made popular by Jimmy Page do.
My point is that the single most important factor in marketing is not the quality of the instrument, it's who plays them.
The best players seek Stradivarious violins, so that they can pay millions of dollars and say they have the best violin in the world.
This says nothing about the quality of the instrument, unfortunately.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

You are IMO confusing correlation with causation. The most valuable Les Paul's are the sunburst with humbucking pickups that were made for only two years, from '58-'60. That is exactly the same model that was played in the 60's by Clapton and Mike Bloomfield, as well as many others. They are substantially different from the previous gold top model (which were made with humbucking pickups for less than a year before the switch to sunbursts and curly maple tops), and were replaced with the SG body, so it's not like what distinguishes those two years is that Page played one. They are not special guitars because somebody played one--people played them because they were (and are) special guitars. I've heard others attribute their popularity to Bloomfield. IMO the quality came first. That's the reason they became sought after by the famous players, who could have been playing anything they wanted. I don't deny that people will want whatever their heroes play, but that doesn't explain why a bunch of the famous players wanted to play something in the first place.

I think everyone should be allowed to worship guitar gods as they please, and there is of course no point in debating religion. As for me, I still remember how bad Page sounded at that concert I went to. I bought the tickets because I was prepared to like him. But his playing was tasteless and non-musical, like he was demoing a bag of different guitar tricks and sounds. My date and I looked at each other halfway through the set and both of us simultaneously tilted our heads in the direction of the exit. Never regretted leaving; just that I wasted the time and money on going.

The conversation has strayed from handmade acoustic instruments (Strads) to factory made solid body guitars, which is too bad. I am not a violin player, but I have had a good long up close look at a couple of Strads, and they are superbly made. I've worked on and played several 58-60 Les Pauls, and while they are very good electric guitars, they really should not be talked about in the same breath.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

SWEET!

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Ok a 58-59 les paul retailed for about $250
I'll give you that for your deluxe Filippo even though it's probably a bit worn.