Official Luthiers Forum!

Sorry Kelby, your long post got my dander up and was a bit rude itself. Relating instrument making to football is ludicrous.
You are correct, I know nothing about what you know, but frankly, your comments lead me to believe you don't know much about the instrument bidness (no offense). Talking to a bunch of builders at Healdburg does not qualify you as being able to tell us what it is like to be a professional instrument maker. You are talking to folks that realize that what they are doing there is mainly having a party with other builders. It's a "builders convention". Few there actually sell an instrument. IBMA is the same way, so is Montreal. You get attacked by folks looking for free instruments in return for endorsement, and mostly, a lot of tire kickers...
I quit my "day job" in 1991 and have built instruments for a living since then. That means I supported my family. Paid $1500/month for health insurance in addition to lights, heat, food, all of it. I wouldn't say we had an easy time, but it is an avocation. I never expected to make a football player's "wage". Provide comfortably? What does that mean?
Yes, my spouse worked, but I bore the majority of the burden. She cleaned houses for a living.
How much does it take to automate? Couldn't tell you, but I believe Jim Olson spent over $300K to turn his shop into a one man factory. He is probably one of the folks you seem believe has "made it". Collings, of course is rich beyond dream (Dow Corning, I think).
I'd like to know who comfortably builds 20 instruments/year without burning out in 5 years. There'd be a lot of shortcuts there. That's what differentiates the hand builder/craftsman from the "entrepreneur". One is in it for the bucks.
Done with this...

Kelby. Why do you think it necessary to build 20 instruments per year to make a living at this? Guitars from individual professional Luthiers can range from (roughly) $2,000 to near $20,000.
The latter would be fairly comfortable on 5 instruments per year, the former would virtually starve producing those same numbers. Some makers have a very short waiting list, some (who are in real demand) can stretch to 10 years or more.
Nor do you have to be up there with the absolute best (whatever that is). There's room for a number of approaches. It's just that the chances of someone becoming full time professional is extremely limited, whatever the 'level'. That's more to do with the number of makers in relation to the number of Players wanting a Luthier made instrument. There's a huge inbalance. In the Steel String world the individual makers is, to a great extent, up against the well known volume producers. That's less true when it comes to Classical Guitars but even that is changing somewhat.
Even when a maker does reach the very top, those very dizzy heights, the rewards are nothing in comparison to what a top Doctor, Footballer, Lawyer earns. That's the difference. I would also add that there are far, far more Doctors, Lawyers or pro footballers than there are pro. Guitar makers. The only way that a Guitar maker can approach the kind of financial rewards that those other professionals earn is by opening up a Guitar factory i.e. he/she virtually stops being a Guitar maker and becomes management. Not only that but those professions never really have to face competition from amateurs/semi professionals who are plying their craft for a bit of fun.

I'm going back to college to get my Geology degree that I did halfway when I left the US. While I think perhaps being in the US would make luthiery easier I don't think the higher living cost will balance out. Plus I don't know if I can survive making less than 10,000 a year because chances are that's what my income will be as a luthier. At least with a Geology degree I might be able to get a job with at least 50,000 yearly income, in a good variety of fields such as civil engineering or working for big oil. But then again science is not really an issue to me... science is practically my hobby.

If you like science bite the bullet and get a science degree. If you are a liberal arts kind of guy, well be prepared to apply the degree almost immediately since companies don't go out looking for liberal art graduates. Whatever you do don't get a useless degree, make sure it's something that gets you work.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai, just FYI ... Geologists right out of college are starting considerably higher than 50k (with oil companies at least). Finish that degree and enjoy guitar building on the side


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How many genuinely world-class builders are there out there? 30? Now how many genuinely successful musicians?

Geez, you've got a better chance of being a rock star than a world-class builder

The OP should be aware that every pessimistic reply on here comes from builders of acoustic guitars.

I suspect that if the OP's nephew (being a rock singer and all) wanted to try his hand at making solid body electrics, he might find the learning curve a good deal less steep, and the pay-offs greater. Especially since he already has access to a fully equipped workshop.

OK, so he will never know how to reset a neck on a D28, but if he has any kind of eye for design, he may just come up with a guitar which catches the eye of a minor or major rock star. If so, job done . . .

No one has mentioned it, and although I'm not sure I believe in it 100%, there is a thing called the 10,000 hour rule. It says you need to practice a task for 10,000 to become a master. That's like a full time job for 5 years. See more here:http://www.wisdomgroup.com/blog/10000-hours-of-practice/

From that article which Jamie linked to . . .



I can't help but wonder what these psychologists would have made of Mark O'Connor . . .



I hardly think that Mark O'Connor had put in 10,000 hours of practice on the violin and another 10,000 hours on the guitar by the age of 13.

I am firmly of the belief that an ounce of talent is worth a pound of perseverance . . .YOMV

I'm a classical guitarist (trying to be at least) and build only a a hobbyist. (Fortunately during undergrad, I had the luxury of some expendable income to blow on equipment). As difficult as it is to build a career as a musician ( currently, I'm teaching at two colleges, a lesson studio, my own home studio, gigging, and working at a movie theatre, and my wife works - all to just make ends meet and have a few bucks to put away at the end of the month), I imagine it's even more difficult to really build a career as a builder/ repair person. And the payoff for the mastery of so many difficult skills is not nearly enough. I would say he's better off - like myself - working a BS job, and maybe woodworking as a hobby if he likes it. Besides, the BS jobs are only draining if you let them.

Inevitably, threads like like this devolve into a fight on whether or not you can make a living being a professional luthier. And all of the people who have worked to be able to say that you can do it take offense when it is said it can't be done.
I have personally never had a "real job", and after fifteen years I can say it is possible but it ain't easy.
But i would also say if you are not prepared for an up hill battle, quit while you are ahead. All of those famouse luthiers who have reached the promised land of financial security spent a lot of years struggling.
Some people where meant to work in a cubicle and some in a wood shop. I know that all of us that make our livings as luthiers would be hard pressed to last longer than a week in a different profession

I don't know who Mark O'Connor is, but I imagine that even by age 13, he had put in a whole lot of time practicing. Talent can help, but I don't think anything can replace hard work. I've never been a "talented" guitarist, and have had to work every step of the way. I will never reach David Russell's level of playing, because I don't have that same combination of talent and hard work. But I don't doubt for a second that he has put in as much (and probably more) work as I have.

guitar, violin, piano, dancing, drawing, painting ... in any field of artistic endeavour there are those who have natural aptitude AKA "talent" and those who have to struggle to achieve competence.

This also applies to manual trades such as carpentry, plastering, bricklaying, welding. I spent a lot of time on building sites as a young man, and was intrigued to see how some tradesmen would achieve maximum results with minimum effort ... the mark of a true craftsman IMO. Others would achieve the same results, but with a great deal less economy of effort. Watching a really good plasterer in action is almost like watching a great ballet dancer. But at the end of the day the talented and the less talented all went home with the same pay packet.

So why should luthiery be any different from any other trade in that respect ? Some people will have a talent for it, others will have less talent but will still make it due to having a powerful motivation.

Rod Schenk sold the second guitar he ever built, at Healdsburg guitar festival no less, for $5000. He didn't take ten years to build that guitar. He also has never looked back since.

Very interesting thread, and I will qualify my comments with the iteration that I just finished my first guitar (and am happily surprised!) and half a dozen violins over the past 10 years. (the guitar is for sale for $1million if anyone wants to enable me to "quit my dayjob")

Many years ago when I used to say "I want to be an astronaut, firefighter, pilot, doctor, guitarmaker, etc...", I was told by a wise mentor to pick a job that will enable me to do the things I really love as hobbies, and don't ever try to make a living at your hobbies.

My dayjob is a surgeon. I found the requirements to become a successful luthier/repair interesting. While my friends played in garage bands and partied and built retirement funds so they could semi-retire by now, I spent 4 years in college clawing my way to summa cum laude, so that I could apply for med school. 4 years and a couple hundred thou in loans, I was elibible to compete for a surgical residency. 6 years later after 100+hr weeks, I could compete for a fellowship.(the federal gov't passed law *limiting* resident doctors to an 80hr work week) A year later, at nearly 40 years old I entered to work force and was able to begin repaying my loans. 8 years later, I'm beginning to save so I may retire someday and build guitars full time! (toss in 4 years military to help defray loans)

I love my career and wouldn't do anything else. Unlike luthiery however, I have people who know NOTHING about what I do mandating and regulating what and how I do my job everyday. I offer this post not as a massive whine (sorry if it sounded that way) but to exemplify that NOTHING worth while is easy, and if the grass appears greener on the other side...its often because its well-fertilized with BS!

Hey dnf777
I was an Orthopaedist for 30 years and started building six years before I retired in 2004. It has become a very nice second career. I found that the skills I developed in the OR were a perfect fit for lutherie.

I do miss having someone hand me my tools and clean up my mess when I'm done

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

what is missing is this , the variable of success. Many people build few build great instruments and fewer actually can make a living at this and lets face it , there are 2 skills needed , 1 is building and the 2nd is business sense. If you don't know how to run a business your chance of success drops dramatically .
Being productive and understanding fiance and time management will help you as much as knowing how to set a neck.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Just a thought...

Luthiery requires a lot of skill, skills that could transfer to other trades. Sure once you get good at luthiery, perhaps the market is limited, but surely there are other areas where the skill transfers that have a higher demand. For example in war time, a firework factory can be retooled into a munitions factory, and people who are good at making fireworks could be hired to work at a munitions factory.

Areas I can think of (with some training) a luthier could go into: Mechanical engineering, forestry management, cabinetmaking, furniture making, drafting, etc.

There are possibilities out there.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

The best advice for anyone without direction who is trying to figure out how to earn money to support themselves is:

Make a list of the things you could be moderately happy doing for a living. This is not a passion list; this is a what can you put up with list.

Make a list of the things you are, or realistically can be (with proper education or training) good at.

Make a list of the things that, realistically, other people will pay you at least a living wage to do.

The intersection of those three lists is where you can find a practical way to earn money to support yourself.

He can get a job at a guitar factory and make $25k per year (PRS, Martin, Taylor, etc..)

I'd recommend that he get some training (either in a trade, or at college) so that he has something more profitable to fall back on. That's what I would recommend to my kids. Being a successful musician is a pretty long shot. If it doesn't work out, I would want him to be able to earn a good living.

Being a self supporting luthier/builder is a long shot as well. He could do this as well, but not without significant sacrifice (time and money)...

Good luck!

Trevor

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

All he needs is a half dozen hit songs or so... It can't be any harder than building a guitar. It's not like he's actually got to make something.

I'm going to bring this thread back... I am sure it is no longer relevant to the OP but in case any other aspiring (or current) luthiers find threads like this, it's helpful.

Being a luthier involves many skill sets, working with a large variety of materials that one must learn and master many techniques in order to be successful. This is especially true if the luthier makes his/her own jigs/tools/fixtures. Perhaps the job market for luthier isn't so good, but it's not the end of the world.

To be a luthier means you must be familiar with a large variety of shop technique, be able to operate machines, have problem solving skills (hmm... how do I do a neck reset on this epoxied in neck??), ability to think outside of the box (while frets.com offers a lot of good resource, you WILL run into a project that is completely outside of anything you have learned), and ability to run and manage a business. With that in mind, think of what other job markets you could place yourself into where the skills you learned as a luthier could transfer. You could be a carpenter, cabinetmaker, construction worker (at least if you are in the US, most houses are made of wood so carpenters will be needed), you could even be a manager. Sure, if you are offered a job as a luthier, great. But if not, there's so many other jobs where skills used in instrument making will be useful, and with a little training you could put yourself in a wide variety of job markets.

That is with the assumption that the OP is already a skilled luthier with some experience under his belt. If the OP does not even know how to build a guitar, and is wondering if he should learn in order to make more money, then things will be different. Luthiery schools are great but sometimes I think that you could be stuck in a box there, so if you are handed instruments that requires work that the school didn't teach, you could panic.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

John Greven does and has been buiding upwards of 50 guitars a year for quite a few years (like 30+ and in the business for more years still), David Webber in Vancouver BC makes about 80 with a helper and a small cnc and Ted Thompson in Vernon BC is well in the 40's per year by himself. So there are guys that do do it. I know all three of these guys well and they all make very nice guitars.

But I think the point is really missed (I didn't read all of the book length posts though). If your nephew really wants to be a musician maybe he shouldn't have a plan "B". Maybe he should just be a musician! You speak to those that have made it in sports and arts and many will say the same thing....."this is what I was going to do, I had no other plans". But if he needs a part time job he should look at a music store, that MAY lead to a stint in the repair/set-up department but it will always keep him up to date with the latest gear available for his trade. I am encouraging my boys to follow their hearts! If they don't have a plan by the end of high school then it is off to University (and they are required to keep grades up for that option) but one is keen on making a career out of soccer and spends a lot of time doing that (he is also a great fiddle player and a straight A student). He does have a couple of other thoughts but he spends hours each day perfecting his soccer skills and sports psychology. The other boy is younger and says he loves guitar but as of yet has not put the commitment that I would want to see for him to follow that path, but he is still a bit young. Anyway, it is great to offer your nephew some options but the best advice is to follow his heart, accept nothing else but what he desires and find a way to make it happen.

Shane

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Canada

If I recall correctly, Richard Brune years ago was making 50 per year.

Some body told me once that to make a small fortune in guitar building you have to start with a large one.

Actually it was the the wine biz but it probably applies here as well.

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Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/

OP here, years later. Wow, this post sure generated a lot of brouhaha back then, most of it after I had my answer! Sorry if I started something that resulted in a few ruffled feathers. Didn't mean to cause unnecessary contention.

Anyhow, because of the great--meaning brutally honest--feedback I got here, I didn't encourage my nephew to go into luthiery (though I did suggest that he might want to learn enough to set up his own guitars so as to save money--I figured if that led to something else on its own, it would be because he discovered a love for the work, and that would be a different story altogether).

Anyway, everyone who contributed to the thread deserves to know the end of the story, so here it is. When I made the original post, my nephew, then a high-school sophomore, had just begun his first genuinely intermediate-level math class (he did geometry as a freshman, so this was whatever they take after geometry--algebra II, I think). Anyhow, by the end of the school year 8 months later, he had fallen in love with math. He also continued to love music (kept playing guitar and also did barbershop quartet throughout high school) but I sat him down one day and told him that if he wanted to pursue a musical career, he couldn't just love music, he had to need it so badly that he couldn't conceive of doing anything else with his life. Otherwise he'd have no chance, given the dedication and sacrifice required. And since he was finding math equally satisfying--perhaps even more so--well, he's a smart kid (it's kind of hard to be dumb if you're naturally good at advanced math) so you can guess how things went. He is now a senior in college finishing up his math major. The pandemic has set him back, maybe as much as two semesters, and he's frustrated with that. But it won't matter in the long run because he'll have no trouble finding a highly remunerative job: he's got all sorts of options in the number-crunching line.

However, members of this forum will be happy to know that whenever he's hit a rough spot, the guitar has helped him get over the hump. Far from being relegated to the closet, his Squier & small practice amp sit out in his apartment's living room and get daily use. Sometimes just a few minutes to run through one of the scales I used to make him practice, or to play the riff from "Spirit of Radio" or some such tune, but it's kept him in balance.

Thanks again for all your helpful replies 6+ years ago.

I have a recommendation.

Have your nephew go into engineering. They need people with GREAT math skills. It is highly lucrative and he'll put his math skills to the test.

I only said engineering because it's a lot of practical applications.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com