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Pete,

Please understand my next question and statement is not a knock or doubting the product but rather just a need to understand how this works.

I took a piece of ablam (green lip) I had and thinned to .03 thick and cut into a 4' long x .047 wide and attempted to bend it into a 8" od (4" outside radius) channel. It snapped before I even got close to achieving the required radius. I do understand the matrix is supporting the laminate but just in my mind I cant see how a solid laminate even supported by the matrix can bend as much as it needs to without compressing on the inside edge of a bend and separating on the outside edge.

When you bend wood, steel, plastic, clay or any material for that matter, on the inside edge of a bend the geometry is compressed to a shorter length than the mean (middle) of the media being bent and the outside edge is stretched to a longer length than the mean. in free bending (not mandrel bent) the inside length remains same as unbent but the outside length is stretched.

Do you have any insight on how this does not happen with this product? Once more it is not a mater of doubting but rather a desire to understand how the natural affect of bending on given material is averted in this product. Kevin if your lurking please feel free to explain.

Michael,
maybe tomorrow Kevin can post an answer to your question. I know how it works but Kevin will do a much better job answering than me...

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Friends,
Some of you have wondered how the new ZipFlex works so here goes.
The traditional method is to take the small 1” solid shell pieces or the 5” Abalam pieces and break these strips into the channel created with the polyethylene or Teflon strips. Essentially, the abalone has a series of small breaks so it can negotiate the curves. The ZipFlex uses the same principle except that the breaks are controlled in length and are shorter than the breaks I normally achieved with the Abalam or shell blank strips. Since they are shorter, they also flow more smoothly around the bends and curves of the instrument. When they are inlaid next to the black/white/black purflings the effect of smooth, flowing lines is stunning. And on darker shells such as paua, blue paua or select green abalone, the breaks are virtually invisible (but that phenomenon would be no different than using the currently available inlay products—nearly everything used in purfling inlay has lots of little breaks. This is just a neat, new way to configure it and make it lightning fast to install)

The issue I had with both of the traditional methods was the time it took to do it and the annoying little delams that would occur. The delaminations were not that big of a deal but still annoying. With the ZipFlex, there just are not delaminations anymore in the shell since the shell is held together with the black, flexible matrix.

As for the time vs. cost vs. efficiency issues, here are the numbers from my shop. And I will compare only the style 45 inlays on the box, not the headstock or fretboard abalone purfling (since I cut those pieces to shape on the CNC).

SOUNDBOARD ABALONE PURFLING
After the channel has been formed (by gluing in the Teflon strip and then removing it after the binding tack/glue has set up), the abalone strips are inlaid. For a soundboard this might take 30-60 minutes. And this does not include the time and/or expense of making or buying the Teflon strips themselves.
But with the ZipFlex, it essentially takes zero time. It is zero because rather than inlaying the Teflon with the bindings and purflings, I just inlay the ZipFlex in there instead of the Teflon. And then its done.

BACK
The back is pretty much the same dynamic as the soundboard.

SIDES
But an even more dramatic savings comes when inlaying the abalone for the side purfling. I make the ZipFlex the same dimension as the side violin purfling and then it is just inlaid instead of the VP.

Just as an experiment, try this formula. Take what you charge for abalone around the soundboard, back and sides. And then also note your time to inlay all of that with the older methods you use now.
Now figure your cost for the materials (about $168 for 240” at $.70 per inch for solid shell or $360 for 240” at $1.50 for Abalam.)
So now take what you charge for the work minus the cost of the shell. Then divide that by your hours. That is your hourly rate.

Now for the ZipFlex, subtract the material cost (about $300) from what you charge and then divide by about .5 (30 minutes--the additional time to inlay the style 45 with the ZipFlex instead of fiber/wood purflings.) Your hourly rate goes up by a factor of 4-6 times.

This is why two of the largest guitar manufacturers in the world currently have ZipFlex in prototype production—because of the enormous savings in time and money.

I will be posting an FAQ at my site fairly soon. If you have any questions I have not covered, by all means call or email me and I will help however I can. I will also add any new questions to the FAQ.

I have been using this ZipFlex or its immediate predecessor in evolution for about 3 years now and I would not dream of going back to the old methods.

Many of you who placed a preorder with Peter M. should be getting your shell fairly soon. And thanks a million for giving it a chance to win you over.

To James Orr; the shell in the photo is blue paua abalone.
To Chris Paulick; the thickness of the shell component is .050”
To Terry Stowell (and others); thanks for the welcome buddy. I really appreciate it.
To Stan Thomison; Yes, those guitars all had the ZipFlex style inlay. It is all I use now everywhere on the guitar.

I also want to thank Lance and Brock for supporting this. You guys will get your ZipFlex before anybody else of course!

I look forward to hearing from you all.
Blessings to all,
Kevin Ryan

this question is for Kevin or Peter...
I've seen the flexiab for sale at LMII. Will the zipflex be available through a supplier or directly from Kevin? I'm also very interested in Kevins linings...
Thanks - Justin

Justin,
I am sure I will work out another arrangement with LMII to carry the ZipFlex. But I will continue to sell the ZipFlex directly to my fellow luthiers.

I should also note that I consider the ZipFlex to be superior to the FlexiAb (hence the new name to differentiate it) and will probably discontinue the FlexiAb altogether. The ZipFlex does everything the FlexiAb did but only much better.

This transitional awkwardness is the price I pay for continually tweaking stuff. But I am really, really done with the ZipFlex. There is nothing I can do to make it better. I just inlaid my first soundboard today with the first of the production ZipFlex (made on the new tooling). I had the soundboard of a cutaway Nightingale inlaid with blue paua and purflings in about 4 minutes (about the same time I take to install the purflings alone in a soundboard that gets only the BWB lines).

Also, after I develop the .063 ZipFlex I will be working on manufacturing the A4 kerfing more efficiently so I can offer that to other luthiers as well.

Thanks for your interest.
Kevin

Kevin
A big welcome here and a big THANK YOU for sharing your innovations with the rest of the lutherie world. I ordered some Blue Paua and am anxious to give it a try.

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John Ressler

Kevin, Welcome to the OLF and thank you for all you're doing and have done for the guitar making world.

I hope you'll be able to find the time to look in on us every once in a while. Your knowledge and experience would be a great to tap in to.

I too am looking forward to trying the ZipFlex and I'm sure I'll be ordering more from you in the future.

Thanks again.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Kevin I will second what John and Rod have said! Its great to see you here! And if you have time, please feel free to stop by any time! You would be a great addition to our community!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Thanks Lance and Rod. I appreciate it.
Kevin

This makes sense to me now but is some degree one of the claims that this eliminates seams is discounted because there are actually more seams. However because the seams are machined into a single continuous strip they very well may be less noticeable.



This is true this will give you your hourly rate you are selling your work to the client but it does not give you your cost. All profitable manufacturing of any kind base the sell price of their product of overhead operating expenses + labor cost + material cost to come up with a standard product cost. Then the apply a profit margin percentage rate to achieve the sell price A low side profit margin is 30% or standard product cost +.3 x standard product cost and the common is 50%. But lets look at this from the 30% margin to keep from implying an actual margin that may offend some one). I am going to round all labor to quarter hours min. to make this a simple equation and do it on a top purfling only job. Since the channeling is the same I will not show the cost of channeling. My Teflon strips normally in my consumables (overhead) since it reusable but to be fair I will add two strips to the shell equation.


Shell
1hour x $30/hr_____________= $30.00
Shell $.70 x 60+ 3” waist ____= $44.10
Teflon strips (2 @ $1.25ea)___=$2.50
Over head operating /1Hr_____=$0.50
___________________________$77.10 standard product cost (SPC)

$77.10 SPC + 30% profit margin =$100.23 sell price

Zipflex
.25hour x $30/hr____________= $7.50
Shell $1.50 x 60” __________ = $90.00
Teflon strips (0 @ $1.25ea)___=$00.00
Over head operating /1Hr_____=$0.50
__________________________$98.00 standard product cost (SPC)

$98.00 SPC + 30% profit margin = $127.4 sell price

There is no doubt that this product’s convenience factor is stupendous and it is easy to see why may especially those that do many of these purfling schemes a month, a year or whatever would love them.

But for me doing only a few per year it would mean my standard product cost and price I sell at, for this job would go up 27.1%, or if I keep the sell price the same, the given profit margin goes from 30% to .023%

Once again this is just an example of the way the numbers workout and is not a reflection on the quality of the product. Nor does it reflect my personal opinion of the product outside of the effect on bottom line cost.

Please under stand I am not knocking this product I am just giving the scenario of how I had to look at its value to me.

Hi Kevin, Welcome to the OLF, for as long or as little as you like.

Just thought I would chime in here that I had a chance to see, touch, and be amazed with this product while visiting out in California for the last NAMM show. The joints are literally invisible, and believe me- I have an eye for joint lines. It's all I notice when looking a inlay work anymore..

This product is a huge time saver, but other then the obvious things that can be done with it, the potential for expanding on traditional inlay art design is huge.
It really is an ingenuous product.
What else wold one expect from Kevin Ryan?

No I have no ties to it, nor am I selling any. Just thought to let others know, it's just that cool.


Craig L

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www.handcraftinlay.com

Thanks Craig!
I cant way to get my hands on it!
To me if it makes it easer, its already worth the $.
If its faster and easer, well then! I am there!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Michael, I thought I was lost at first but now I am REALLY lost!

I don't know of many builders that charge purflings by the hour and if that is your case, then I guess you make your own business decisions....
But in my case I have a flat price for the purflings....if it takes me long its my problem but if I can get it done is "no time" then I just saved myself time to work on something else. The real savings are the time plus a product that looks awesome. Besides, if you compare Abalam to ZipFlex, the price is the same.

thanks,

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Hey Pete,

I don't charge by the hour but I do use a rate to figure out my cost so that I know what to set my price at If I didn’t then I would just be guessing at my profitability

In some form or another, if you do this for a business then you must know what your costs are to be able set a price based on a profit margin. Right?

I want you and everyone to know I do not discourage anyone from using this product. In fact now that I know how the product bends I think this is a technological marvel and is a fabulous product. I am giving thought to giving it a go for top purfling and places where I would not be sanding it much. But for me to do so and maintain the margin I seek I will have to raise the price because the time savings does not come close to making up the additional cost. And that was my only argument. It was implied that the time savings would make up for the added cost. It will make up for a small percentage of it, but nowhere near all of the additional cost. Now if shell purfling issues like delaminating, breaking shell making clean joints are frustrations to you then there is additional value in this product to you, but not to everyone. So I am saying if you are experienced and proficient with natural shell it is a fact that the time savings that this product saves does not come close to making up for the additional cost unless you figure your standard labor cost per hour is above $50 per hour. Mine is not.

I have been building for sell for 7 years I am in a small regional market. And I am a very small fish in the global luthier pond. The way I found a niche in the market was to get skills at a level consummate with most pro builders and offer my work at a rate that makes an acceptable profit for me but that is extremely competitive with builders of equal or greater reputation. For me to be able to do this I needed to know what my true costs were are. This includes how many hours it takes on average to do a task as well as the cost of materials and utilities and consumables (overhead) This is something I keep a very close eye on. It is something I am always conscious of. It is something that is ever changing and requires quarterly adjustment so that I am sure I maintain a margin that makes doing this worth my while financially. This is how I was taught to run a business. I made up no magic formula to show the figures I used. It is pretty much straight out of the cost analyses text book.


I think this is one or the greatest inventions in shell purfling I have ever seen. I think the product is a winner in every respect but one. It’s affect on the bottom line.

I spoke up an continued on, not to knock the product but to be the voice of those of us out there that look at a product like this from its ability to make our product a better value.

Please, please understand I do think mechanically and I am sure quaility wise this is a terrific product. And I really do wished it made better sense to my bottom line but it does not and I am not frustrated or unsure of the out come when dealing with natural shell.

Welcome to OLF, Kevin. Make sure you let us know when you get that A4 "Kerfing" (inside joke) ready. That's something I really would like to try, if only because it looks cool.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Thanks Peter
Welcome Kevin

Guys I saw a preliminary version of this with Kevin and and Peter at last years NAAM show. It is awesome stuff.
Order placed!!!!

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

I'm interested. Can you do an order to Ottawa, Canada?

Thanks,
Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

Oh no! Not an easier way for people to put MORE 'pearl' onto guitars.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Sure can, slightly higher shipping though....

thanks,

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

OK, good, what do you need for shipping to Ottawa so I can add it on when I do the Paypal thing?

Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

Pat, figure about $17 for Priority Mail to Canada.

Thanks,

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Kevin, I PM'ed you yesterday. Did you see my message?

Do I need to work my (large) order through you instead Peter?

Thanks,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Dave Fifield,
Sorry for the delay. I don’t quite have the knack of checking the messages from the forum. Sorry about that.

By all means you can send the order directly through me. Peter doesn’t get anything from the orders—he is just helping me because we’re good friends.

And for you other folks who have sent PMs (see, I am getting the lingo), I will get to them all today. In the future, the easiest way to contact me is through my regular email since I am able to check that once or twice a day. Now if it is much easier for you all to use PMs, then by all means do so and I will try to get in the habit of logging in to the forum more often. My regular email is ryanguitar@earthlink.net

Pat H., you will be the first guy in Canada to have ZipFlex. Global domination with ZipFlex sounds good to me…

MichaelP, your logo says “Gone Fishing”. By any chance is that fly fishing? That has been my new passion for several years now. As a boy, I fished for bass in the farm ponds of Kansas. Great memories with my dad and brother.

And I want to thank everyone for their enthusiastic response to this stuff. Developing ZipFlex has been a long, 3-year journey littered with interminable hurdles and challenges. It feels good for it to be meeting with a nice welcome from the luthierie community.

Waddy, I think I made some good progress last night in making the A4 faster to produce. (by the way, is the “Kerfing” inside joke because “kerfing” is a verb, not a noun?) I will keep you folks updated on the website.
Blessings to all,
Kevin

Kevin, just dont ask Howard Klepper to call linings kerfings

A little OLF history behind it

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Kevin:

Welcome to the group. You gave me advice once in an email, and it's never been forgotten.

I'm going to wait on the wider product, and the improved kerfing, but I am definitely going to purchase some.

We're glad you're here.

Bill Greene

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.