Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm with you John... I'm done with this one.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

A Computer Numerically Controlled laser. That's why I think robotic arms count as well

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Hey - wait just a minute - I was a test tube baby and I did not turn out........ well let's not go there........

CNC is here to stay and will continue to grow as a very viable way to increase a builder's precision and reduce repetitive tasks freeing up more time for the creativity and artistry of guitar building.

I just picked up a box of CNC goodies from John at CNCguitarparts.com this weekend at the Ann Arbor gathering and I am thrilled with the quality of what John produces. I could not be more proud to use John's offerings on my guitars.

As always to each their own - everyone should do what is right for them.

I'm crawling back in my test tube now.......

Don Williams wrote:
"Because the slot is "stopped" before the edge of the FB, and also because the slot is not as deep in the middle as a straight-cut slot, the fretboard cannot flex after cutting the way a typical fretboard can before it is glued on. What that adds to a neck is (in theory) a bit more stiffness. It might also help to held frets a bit better as well, but I'm not certain of that."

In what way is stopping the slot before the edge a benefit, especially as compared to a normal bound fingerboard?

I anticipated the 'added stiffness' argument. Remember, the slot is on the compression side; once it's pinched together on the fret it's not going to move further, no mater how much air space there is underneath. The 'missing' material is down further, and doesn't contribute as much to the stiffness, in theory.

And the real problem is in those two words: "in theory". We can argue this stuff up and down all day, but without numbers to back it up it's just wind. If it does work, and you can show that it does, I'll be glad to accept it as an improvement, but I've seen too many 'breakthroughs' over the past thirty years that have come and gone with hardly a trace to not be skeptical.

You're correct (which is normal, being that you're Al ) in that the blind slot probably doesn't add an appreciable amount of stiffness above a normal binding scheme. It does, however, add that stiffness without all the hassle of a normal binding job. The main structural addition is the extra wood under the frets which is more substantial but still not a huuuuge improvement over a regular bound board.

The real improvement is that the technology allows one to have those benefits with much less time investment VS binding, allowing them to make those improvements over straight slotted boards 'standard' rather than 'extra'. Little things, but the little things can add up.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

If you want all your parts made by cnc and robots, just buy a kit and put it together. Hand made guitars should not be the same every time. If your goal is to make a zillion guitars then automation is the answer. If your goal is to hand craft an instrument you should do all the operations by your own hands that you are capable of doing. For most of us that would be the wooden parts. Your "building" skills will not improve much if you only have to make one decent guitar and then turn it over to a robot. Every piece of wood is different and a skilled craftsman will match the proper parts as he builds to achieve the optimum result. I have nothing against cnc or automation, but I build because I wanted to try and build a great guitar by hand, as much as I was capable of, anyway. My opinion is that you should use any method you want to produce a guitar, but "I" wouldn't call it handmade unless my hands shaped every wooden part on every guitar I build. (with or without power tools, my hands are controlling the outcome) I'm not there yet, but I'm nearly there. My guitars may not be as pretty or as great as many shown here, but they "will" be hand made.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

"We can argue this stuff up and down all day, but without numbers to back it up it's just wind," Al C.

Don't you just love a good quote? Thanks Al.

I don't have a CNC machine, but I do make great use of routers.

I don't have a CNC machine, but appreciate a well made part when I buy them, usually bridges if it's a Martin style.

I don't have a CNC machine, but can't wait to use a faux bound Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard I purchased, wow.

I Don't have a CNC machine, but did build a kit that had a CNC'd neck which was really a time saver. I even bought another CNC'd Martin neck which I hope to use one day. I love hand shaping my necks, so I'm not giving up that operation to the CNC, by golly.

IF I had a CNC, I'd likely use it a lot more to produce a fine line of nearly identical guitars, who knows, I might even be able to lower my prices if I did that. Hmmmm.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I'm philosophical about CNC...

The fact that I can purchase a precise slotted, radiused fingerboard if I wanted to, is testament to the fact that CNC has shaped and cut it, creating profit for the manufacturer a better deal, and timed saved for me.

I bet this comment has been said, many times before.....

I'm on it now!

Hey Hesh Buddy! I was wondering ...have you ever made a neck from.... scratch ? Otherwise, you might as well just be making a glorified, extremely flimsy........ bongo.... right?
Just a question, is all! XOXOXOX



Rightee-O! Neck mortise and tenons, frets slots, fretboard/neck bonding surface, most other areas do not have to be that accurate. But, it's not just about accuracy, repeatability, speed and complicated shapes is where CNC really shines. A CNC is going to pump out 10 bridges(or more) a lot faster and more aesthetically consistant than doing by hand(whatever "by hand" means).

When one needs the accuracy, too, it's there!

As for sounding as good, anybody has the rights to their beliefs and I seriously don't want to denigrate anybody for theirs, but the thought that CNC components sound any different from a comparable hand worked is very hard to consider realistic.

CNC aint for everybody! Some guy building for fun in his garage/basement/spare bedroom/Pop n' Drop likely has very little use for CNC. There's nothing at all wrong with that, but for many that build for others, on a schedule, CNC can make a huge difference. CNC, quite effectively, increases shop output dramatically especially for small professional builders.

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Steve Spodaryk brought a faux bound fretboard that had a contoured slot depth to a NEL meeting a last year. This board was noticeably stiffer than any slotted fretboard that I had seen. Someone said, I don't remember who, that these boards lay flat after the frets are installed. Is this a "better" fret board?

You are right that the stresses on a guitar neck will compress the top of the fret board and the fret tangs will resist this. So, we may have a situation where the fret board is stiffer while off the neck and unfretted but have no real impact on a completed guitar.

What if I don't want ten identical bridges? For me, bridge weight, flexibilty, length, and so on, are variables that I use to try to get the sound I want. It's the heaviest brace on the top, after all, and if I'm going to go to the trouble of shaping the other braces to get the top to work right, why not the bridge? Much the same goes for other parts; every guitar I make seems to 'need' a different neck, for instance.

Besides, I've spent a lot of time refining my hand tool chops, so that I can work fast and reasonably clean. At this point I don't want to invest the time it would take to learn CAD, and all of the other stuff. Even if I did, I'm sure it would take longer to alter the size of a bridge on the computer than it would for me just to make the thing.

There are times when I could use a good CNC setup, but as of now, they're few and far between. I'm afraid if I had the dust and the time, I'd waste it on something like a laser Dopler vibrometer. To each his own.

Not true at all. Once you know what exactly you want to draw, it only takes minutes to generate the code you want and go cut it out (speed of which is obviously determined by your equipment). The CAD part takes what it takes. Most bridges are pretty simple and don't take long to draw. The beauty of CAD & CNC is that allows you to focus on the design...and then to cut that out pretty darn near perfectly. And then do it again in a reasonable amount of time. Granted, I have thousands of hours of CAD/CAM/CNC experience. It's nothing that you can buy today and do tomorrow.



Also not true. CNC is now affordable for the serious hobbyist/small builder. You won't get a Fadal for the price range most of these guys are in, but you can get something good enough to carve necks and cut inlay.

Long story short - the application of CAD & CNC technology to guitars is not a soulless endeavor as some would have you believe. There is a lot of "headwork" in learning the skills you need, designing jigs and processes, learning how to use and maintain the equipment.

I'm sorry - I'll try not to read this thread anymore...

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Right you are, Al. CNC makes no sense for the kind of business you are in. You never make the same thing twice, unless you are trying to see how close to identical you can get or check the effect of a single difference, so why produce anything in batches. Kevin Ryan, on the other hand, makes lots of copies of a small set of instruments. For him, the utility of CNC is a completely different equation.

As for the laser Dopler vibrometer, did you check the "still good shed" at the dump? You'd be amazed at what people throw away theses days.