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Experience with Sytem Three T-88 Epoxy?
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15302		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  j.Brown [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:57 am ]
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I'm wondering if System Three's T-88 adhesive epoxy will work for laminations and adhering the FB to the neck. I don't have easy access to West System locally, but Woodcraft carries the System Three and its in a nice convenient size.
-j.
Author:  Rick Hubka [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:09 am ]
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I have quite a bit experience with T-88.

Here is a picture of the fuselage of a small two seater wooden homebuilt aircraft I constructed 5 years ago.  Absolutely every glue joint is done with T-88 epoxy glue.  The wood here is Sitka Spruce and Swedish aviation plywood.  T-88 is FAA approved as a structural epoxy.

Wood joints glued together with T-88 stays together forever (well...  as long as you live?!?!).  If you try to take a T-88 glued joint apart the wood will break first. 
Note:  Do not apply excessive pressure when gluing resulting in too much squeeze out or the joint will be glue starved/weak.

I would never want to try removing a fret board from your guitar if you use this stuff

Finally I got to answer a question on this forum. I'm still bracing my first guitar top and the help this forum provides new builders is AWSOME!!!
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:16 am ]
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Very cool Rick - I am assuming that there is a garage type door not shown in the picture.....

How does she fly?
Author:  j.Brown [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:29 am ]
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So I’m guessing this being an FAA approved structural epoxy, it will not release with a little heat. In that case, I’m probably going to need to look at a different System Three product, as I do want reversibility on the FB.
Anyone have any alternatives? The big box stores here don’t have the high quality epoxies. Just the twin tube small packages. I’ve been told those won’t suffice.
-j.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:35 am ]
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Try hobby stores that sell radio control airplane stuff.  They often carry Bob Smith which is excellent epoxy and CA.  It is private labeled for the stores though so you have to ask them if the house brand is in fact Bob Smith.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:49 am ]
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Hesh, don't you think it looks a bit overbraced. I wonder what is the tap tone like. Shares some harpguitar characteristics.

((sorry for the offtopic ))
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:51 am ]
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Yeah, but it has plywood sides.  
Author:  Rick Hubka [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:52 am ]
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I can't hi-jack this thread because T-88 too strong for possible future repair

Hesh...  I see you have heard the stories of the guy who built a plane in his basement or garage and the finished product was too big to exit.
It's true...  happened right here in Calgary to a guy I know and has happened to many others.

I'm ok though.  Here's a few pic's with the garage door.



The carbon fiber seats were fun to build.

I can't tell you how is is to fly.  I only finished 50% and sold it to a friend who wanted it real bad when he heard that I really wanted to build guitars and not airplanes.  Now we are both happy.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:57 am ]
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I actually did it when I was a teenager.  Built a speaker box with, I can't remember how many cubic feet of sealed air space, for my room upstairs in our house.  It was refrigerator sized.  Ended up having to cut it in half to get it into my room, glued the two halves back together.  It worked great.  It was still in the house when it was sold.  
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:07 am ]
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One of my RC club members bid that on a 1/3 scale B17 he built it was in over sized one car garage. Fortunately the wing was removable so no big deal

I will second Bob Smith epoxy. Or pacers 10 min. Zpoxy For that mater I would suspect that the finishing resin would have enough strenght. to attach a FB
Author:  Billy T [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:25 am ]
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[quote=RickH]Here is a picture of the fuselage of a small two seater wooden homebuilt aircraft I constructed 5 years ago.[/quote]

    Geesh! that's full sized! I thought that was a model! Huhm! This is givng me really bad ideas!

Michael, Aren't all wings removable?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:38 am ]
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[QUOTE=Billy T]
Michael, Aren't all wings removable? [/QUOTE]

Doesn't that depend on the landing?
Author:  Sylvan [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:48 am ]
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I have used, am still use, T-88 epoxy since the mid seventies. It is great glue
and very forgiving on its 50:50 ratio of mixing (you can be pretty far off and
it still works just fine!). I highly recommend it!
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:00 pm ]
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Any experience with reversibility, Sylvan?  Does it release wit heat like other epoxies?
Author:  Rick Hubka [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:51 am ]
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Yes.....  T-88 will release with heat.  I did it last night.

I have lots of 5 year old epoxied T-88 / Sitka spruce wood joints that has never made it to the dump yet so...  last night after participating in this thread I did some rough testing.

Using a paint stripper heat blower, I heated up an epoxied joint to 175 deg F and pulled hard.  The joint broke apart with 50% wood damage and 50% epoxy release.

Next I took another joint up to about 200 deg F (I had some light burn marks on this one) and gave light tug.  The T-88 glue joint pulled apart 100% clean very easy with no wood damage.

Now I have only ever pulled off one fret board and I had about 20% wood  damage at about 125%.  I'm thinking 200% may be too hot and too hard a heat to obtain on an actual guitar?

Maybe someone who's pulled lots of FB's off can chime in here.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:10 am ]
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Probably would work better with an iron, or some kind of heat sink providing the heat.  Also, would be less likely to scorch the wood.  Heat guns are putting out at 450 - 500*, and heating the wood to 200* takes too long.  If you were to heat a block of steel to 300, and put it on the wood, it would transfer the heat without scorching, and probably accomplish the task more efficiently and with less damage.  Of course, the best option would be a heat blanket.
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:00 am ]
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Exactly. Put the stupid heat gun away(except for testing purposes <g>)
Author:  Rick Turner [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:12 am ]
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Before heating blankets were so easy to get, I just used a clothes iron.   In fact, I still do...
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:26 am ]
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Same here; in fact, I just cleaned up the bottom of that old iron yesterday on the long bed sander. It was beginning to show its age. I was impressed at how flat it was! Better than my record plane when purchased....
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:19 am ]
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FYI, as Sylvan said, the mix ratio is 1 to 1 by volume but it's 1.0/0.83 resin to hardener by weight. They also give the "Heat Deflection Temp" as 119 F. I assume full release would be higher. System Three has all the tech data on their site but for some stupid reason, you have to register to see it.


I don't have a lot of specific experience with T-88 but with other epoxy, the mix ratio is important in gaining full strength. I don't doubt that Sylvan is correct about some leeway particularly if we're only talking about fretboard loads. If I was flying in something though....


I've run into a few people who hate epoxy because they have had experiences where it "never fully hardened". I've always suspected it's from improper mix ratios.


Also know that it's a known sensitizer. Gloves and a respirator are worth the effort. I've heard some serious horror stories.
Author:  j.Brown [ Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:06 am ]
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[QUOTE=Kent Chasson]

FYI, as Sylvan said, the mix ratio is 1 to 1 by volume but it's 1.0/0.83 resin to hardener by weight. They also give the "Heat Deflection Temp" as 119 F. I assume full release would be higher. System Three has all the tech data on their site but for some stupid reason, you have to register to see it.

[/QUOTE]

Does this release temp sound similar to other adhesive epoxies...i.e. West System?
Tempermental mix ratios are the reason I bought a nice gram scale. I have much better luck with them now.

Author:  Kent Chasson [ Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:29 am ]
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Yes, similar to West System. Good tech data on both sites.


Gram scale is the way to go for small amounts.
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