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| Saddle Shims http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15382 |
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| Author: | Colby Horton [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:38 am ] |
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I've never really used saddle shims. Usually I just make a new saddle, but I'm thinking about doing some experimenting with shims. What is the best material for shimming a saddle? What is the best way to make them? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:50 am ] |
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Hummm? <scratching my head as to what experiment> Personally nothing but if a necessity or for experimental usage I would think micarta would be one of the best choices. you want to be sure the plane of the bottom of the saddle. top of shim/bottom of shim/ slot of bridge are all making good contact everywhere. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:56 am ] |
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I use strips of hardwood veneer. Usually rosewood or ebony, depending on what the bridge is made from. |
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| Author: | Colby Horton [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:08 am ] |
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Well, actually I meant to say experimenting with my action. Not the just the shims. |
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| Author: | Bruce Dickey [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:11 am ] |
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I have a 12 inch square paper cutter and a stack of old business cards. I rarely shim because it's just too easy to make a new one, nut or saddle in bone. But the last couple of days, my wife's Taylor has a minor buzz. It's winter, happens every year about now. A slice of business card .010" will take care of the problem, remember, that raises the action only .005" at the 12th fret. Then come Springtime string changing, I can take it out. I experienced this with my brother-in-law's D28. Answer, winter saddle, summer saddle. Works like a charm. Who doesn't like great action? Who doesn't hate buzzing? |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:33 am ] |
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In a pinch, I use CA and fabric. Put some plastic packing tape down on a flat piece of wood. Put a small piece of old sheet on it. Soak it with CA. Wipe accelerator on the bottom of the saddle with a Q-tip. Press the saddle into the fabric being careful not to glue you fingers. Trim the edges. Sand flat. Repeat if you need more height. (usual caveat about CA fumes and personal safety here) Works great on nuts too. Hard and practically invisible. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:25 am ] |
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I use modeling clay. Cram some in the slot, then just keep pushing the saddle down until the action feels right, pop the guitar in the oven for half an hour to harden the clay and your good to go. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:27 am ] |
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Oh man, Lance can you delete post that for me. I forgot that Hesh made me promise to keep that a trade secret when he taught it to me. |
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| Author: | burbank [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:38 am ] |
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I use scraps of purfling strips. Gets me different thicknesses. I put down a piece of non-stick plastic like a chip-dip lid, on a flat surface, put the shim on it, saddle on top and flood with CA then a shot of accelerator. Sand to shape. Takes about three minutes. Only for experiments, though. For small changes on the nut, I do it like Kent, but with paper. It's invisible too. David, where did you get an oven that a guitar would fit into? Pizza parlor supplier? 
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| Author: | David Collins [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:02 am ] |
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If I'm making a new saddle naturally I wouldn't be using any shims. For general setups though, I try to keep a good variety of different thicknesses of rosewood and ebony on hand. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:17 am ] |
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[QUOTE=David Collins]Oh man, Lance can you delete post that for me. I forgot that Hesh made me promise to keep that a trade secret when he taught it to me.[/QUOTE] Right - David the only thing that you may have ever learned from me is how NOT to act...... I am surprised that more people are not in the "shims are a shoddy, corner cutting, way to do things" or "I'll never be a stinkin Luthier if I have to use stinkin shims to get it right" camps. As for me I am undecided as to how I feel until I see how more people feel about shims here........  Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I have had to remake a saddle or a nut to get it right.......  |
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| Author: | Blanchard [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:13 am ] |
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I use maple purflings or strips cut from maple veneer for saddle shims. I don't think saddle shims are any kind of evil thing. In fact, when I set up a new guitar, I do so with one .020 maple shim under the saddle, loose (not glued to the saddle). Usually, within 4 to 8 weeks of receiving a new guitar, my customers find that the action has crept up a little bit. Taking out the shim usually puts it back where it was to start with. This is a great convenience to them and me. I have never been able to detect any change in tone by adding one or two loose shims under a saddle. I do not shim nuts, however, mostly for cosmetic reasons. Mark |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:17 am ] |
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Thanks Mark - I'll buy that and you just saved me a whole bunch of work! 
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:41 am ] |
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There seems to be a broadly excepted conventional wisdom that perfect contact between the bottom of the saddle and the top of the saddle slot is super critical. I'm not convinced. When I first started building, a friend brought in his cheap guitar for me to change out the plastic saddle and nut and put in bone. In my inexperience, I didn't realize that the saddle slot had opened up at the top. I made a new saddle, strung up the guitar and it sounded great but the action was higher than it should have been. I quickly realized that the saddle was wedged in the slot and not even touching the bottom! He didn't want to spend the money to replace the bridge so I made a new saddle to fit the slot as well as I could and seated it all the way. It sounded no better. Another experience I had was trying to get even signal across the width of an under saddle transducer. In adding the UST, I couldn't hear a noticeable change in the tone of the unamplified guitar. But I was getting weak signal on the low E. I ended up having to fit the saddle a little looser in the slot to get good downward pressure on the UST and I did think the guitar had less punch after that. So I'm of the belief that a saddle should be quite snug on the sides and doing so decreases the pressure of the saddle against the bottom of the slot and makes that juncture less important (and shimming OK). |
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| Author: | jhowell [ Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:27 pm ] |
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I bought a stack of maple buisness cards (unprinted) from Lee Valley. They make great shim stock for saddles and also for shimming neck dovetails. Seems like they were $3.95 for 50 or some such. |
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| Author: | Colby Horton [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:07 am ] |
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Thanks for all the info guys!
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:21 am ] |
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I've used a shim in 2 saddles so far. When you think about it...if you use the same wood as the bridge for the shim, what difference will it make? On 1 occasion I even used a shim on a nut without being detectable. Same wood as the substrate so as not to advertise the correction. There...I feel better after my confession! 
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:34 am ] |
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But wait - there's more - and if you call right now operators are standing by...... Well it's a day later and I am a dollar shorter and regardless of all the endorsements for using shims here it still just does not sit right with me..... I have heard that Mario ships two saddles with his guitars. A summer saddle for wetter conditions when the dome is more profound and a winter saddle for when forced air heating systems are likely dropping the dome somewhat due to drier RH conditions. Not only is this a very cool thing to do in my way of thinking it also occurred to me that Mario is not shipping one saddle and a shim. Instead he goes to the trouble to make two saddles, get them both right, and provide this value to his customers. Certainly it would be easier to make one saddle and a shim. I remain unconvinced that shimming a saddle, or a nut for that matter is not to some degree negating the value of the materials that we use for nuts, saddles, bridges, and necks and the perfect fit that we strive for. So there........ |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:03 am ] |
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Hesh I look at it this way. If properly fitted a saddle is tight (not forced) fitting to the sides of the slot and the flush to the bottom of the slot. This provides the best path for energy transfer. Anything you place between the saddle and the bottom of the slot will to some degree or another diminish some of the energy the saddle is inputting to the bridge. This may be very little and inaudible to most ears. It is kind of like resistance in an electrical circuit. This said there is a time and place where a shim may be a good short term option. My thinking is it would be best if the shim was as good of an energy relay as the saddle its self. in other words what will induce the least resistance. I am a firm believer that a poorly fitted saddle, ie loose to the vertical edges of the slot or not flush to the bottom of the slot returns loss of volume and tone. I may be pried off this belief with convening data but you better bring a crowbar. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:26 am ] |
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Hesh, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is not based on experience. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:37 am ] |
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Michael you summed it up very nicely for me too - thanks bro! Barry go find someone else to fight with - this is the new and improved Hesh..... So if using a shim has no loss of energy why not make a bunch of generic saddles and "always" shim them for the correct height......? Also, why use a BRW bridge and perhaps a bridge plate too if you are going to turn around and put a slab of maple in the sandwich....? Don't get me wrong I do understand the value of using a shim to quickly and inexpensively (for the client too) resolve an issue. But on new guitars that we just built I think it's reasonable that we can make a nut and saddle the correct height - or keep trying..... |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:51 am ] |
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Not to be obstinate, but I sort of like Mark's philosophy. If playing in a guitar will, over a short period of time, change the action to a point where it is noticeable, then the removal of a shim is a simple and inexpensive solution to a consistent issue, that would otherwise require another saddle, and one to be thrown away. What a waste! I also think Grumpy's philosophy of sending two saddles is a good solution to an issue he has, specific to his instruments. Maybe Mark's heavier style (his comment from the top thickness thread) doesn't have the same issues with humidity. What this is, is a means to an end, that satisfies the customer. It is a viable solution to an issue. Not a bad thing. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:35 am ] |
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Waddy Your not being obstinate. Heck you not even disagreeing with me or Hesh. We both said it is a decent short term solution. As far as throwing away a good saddle. Well if it is too short then in my opinion is not...so.. good, and bone is really pretty cheap when considering the cost of the guitar. besides I would not throw it away. I have a bin full of replaced saddles and regularly test fit them for repair a re-set-up jobs. both for height and intonation. If workable I rework them to be right for the job at hand. I too like What Grumpy does with seasonal saddles I am just saying I would not send out a new, repaired or newly set-up guitar with a shimmed saddle because I know it would be less than the best I can do. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:23 am ] |
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Hesh, not trying to pick a fight with you. Just making a note for others to keep your level of inexperince in mind when reading your posts or tutorials, as you tend to over promote yourself. I think that is a dangerous thing. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:57 am ] |
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[QUOTE=BarryDaniels] Hesh, not trying to pick a fight with you. Just making a note for others to keep your level of inexperince in mind when reading your posts or tutorials, as you tend to over promote yourself. I think that is a dangerous thing.[/QUOTE] I am going to get my self in real deep water but frankly I don't care. Wow!!!!!!!! Why was this called for? Do we now nee an Astrix by our name to indicate weather our opinion or knowedge bas is relevent. Not Called for at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No matter whom it was written to. |
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