Official Luthiers Forum!

So with all the discussions about Ervin's article, and the bashing that the ebay guitar took, I'm curious what you all think makes a "high dollar" (use your own number here) guitar? Lets say one that is worth > $5000 ( I know, not "high dollar" for some, but work with me here, OK?)

I'll make a few of the first assumptions for you - the quality of the work is topnotch - none of the stuff we saw on the ebay guitar post...A great finish, excellent "playability" -

Assuming that many of the guitars here and the builders here are building "tried and true" designs, to very close tolerances between builders...what are the subjective differences that make one person's guitar worth $6000 and another's $3000? Name of the builder? Number of guitars they've made?

What do you think?

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Mitch

For me "Sound". How the guitar sounds and responds would be first and foremost. Of course topnotch craftsmanship and finish would play into it. It could be a beautiful most precise built guitar, but if it sounds like crap I wouldn't give a nickle for it. Well, if it had Gotoh tuners I'd give a little more.

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

I agree with Chuck.

To me the fit and finish and playability have to all be first rate but where the rubber meets the road is the tone. After all a guitar's primary mission in life is to produce tone is it not?

It is in this way of thinking, my way....... that guitars are somewhat like people. You have heard the expression "not just another pretty face?" It's what is inside that counts and the resulting tone that is produced as a result.

Although many builders make guitars that are outwardly the same shapes/designs I doubt that many of us are building strictly from plans. Voicing takes the detour and the individual preferences and talents of the builder take it from there.

Sorry to be long winded - the difference, once the fit, finish, playability are all there is tone.

I think once the guitar sounds good/great, it plays good/great, it is built tight and clean, and it has a good aesthetic presentation it all comes down to Branding.

I am not saying that you can't continue to mature as a builder in quality as you gain experience, but my guess is most consumers of these guitars don't have the skills to differentiate the subtle differences between a 6,000 guitar and a 10,000 guitar.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

This still seems incredibly subjective to me.

Not the fit and finish part, but the "sound" part. i think that what Brock said is true, that beyond an extremely small population, many won't be able to tell the difference between a well made $3500 guitar and a $5000 or $6000 guitar.

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Mitch

I think sound id the most important aspect. Sometimes too the luthier should be considered. For example, my work as a novice would be worth about $4.00 an hour. Comparably, I think a master craftsman's work would be worth significantly more...like $200 or so an hour. Like Brock pointed out...it's branding.

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

I suspect that some people paying $10,000 or more for a guitar would like to be branded . . . in a darkened room . . . but probably not by a luthier

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Hi Joe - so to play devils advocate, you are saying your work would be sub-par? or you are saying it takes you longer to get to the same place as a more experienced luthier?

Not trying to start a fight, just wondering what makes you say that?

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Mitch

You guys clearly do not spend much time on more player-oriented guitar forums. If you did, you'd know that most of the players (and I use the term loosely) don't think that there's much difference in tone once you get above about $1,500.00 for a guitar, and once you get above about $6,000.00, you start to loose real musicians.

I mean no disrespect, but when did you last see someone using one of Ervin's guitars on stage? He's priced out of the true working musician's realm. Ditto with Jeff Traugott, though there are some guitarists like Alex DiGrassi who got his when the guitars were affordable; I actually know two really great guitarists who sold their Traugotts to pay for divorces and another to make a down payment on a house.

This is not about OUR criteria; it's about THEIR criteria, and it is about branding once you get past basics. Craftsmanship has to be a given, and yes, tone is important; but the market place tells us that who we are as perceived by collectors is what puts prices over the top.

As for salable tone...I think there's a big difference between guitars that please a player in a living room (your basic big buck collector) and ones that are useful for performing and recording. If you want to sell guitars easily, make the tops and backs really thin and make the guitars rumble. Just don't be surprised when they prove hard to record or when they get left behind on tours because they don't amplify or project well...

Mitch...to answer your question...both

I know I have a lot to learn and a lot more practice to get my craftsmanship up to par. Also, I think that some far more experienced luthiers have earned their stripes and have earned the right to charge top dollar.

I do have to add, I am strictly a hobbiest with no aspirations to ever sell an instrument.

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

hmmm.....

So, it appears from the responses that for some folks there are two different audiences for their work as a luthier....Players, like Rick indicates, and other luthiers....and of course, our own ears.

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Mitch

Yeah, I agree. I do spend time on the players forums and I know what you are talking about. I recognize that the majority of these high dollar guitars will never leave the living room. Real musicians just can't justify letting loose that kind of cash, plus these super high end guitars are just not road worthy enough to be a working guitar (not to mention the problems you point out over amplification and sound).

But that said... If you ask the question what differentiates a 6k guitar from a 10k guitar or a 12k guitar from a 20k guitar. I think it HAS to be branding.

Again, making the assumption that the instrument sounds good and is well built, the key "value" in the higher priced guitar is the brand perception of the builder. It just has to be. There just isn't any real differentiation in guitars (beyond the subjective components of tone and aesthetics) at these levels.

My curiosity though, is are the builders selling guitars in the $15k+ range structure their marketing to "get there" or did they find a market that they didn't intend to tap and are just riding the wave?

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Make that three:

1) Players...real working musicians

2) Collectors...money

3) Luthiers...on whom the expenditure of time may be food for the ego, but not food for the table

Slightly related question... Why do luthiers do the "Luthier's Consortium" at NAMM? NAMM is all about selling to dealers. Are the luthiers trying to open up retailers or do the end run around NAMM and stores and use that concentration of musos as a way to reach guitarists?

Brock, I only know of one "high buck" luthier who really plotted out his career moves, and that's Kevin Ryan.

As for some of the others:

Jeff got lucky with that cover article and photo essay in Acoustic Guitar Magazine on how he builds his guitars. It didn't hurt that he cornered the market on fantastic Brazilian rosewood nor that he truly is a great guitar maker. He is also an incredibly gregarious person who his clients regard as their best friend.

Jim Olson just worked his ass off for years and got his guitars into the hands of some great and popular players.

Ervin has become a folk hero in Japan and has been a strong advocate for the art of guitar making.

Bob Benedetto did market himself extremely well into the jazz guitar market.

Who else?

I have to believe that its some of both. I think at one point in time they realized someone would pay a lot for the guitars they build, then started to think about how to reach more that those kinds of buyers.

If a luthier has a steady stream of professional musicians at their door, they know at what price points these folks can continue to buy, and probably have a line of instruments that meet that need, if they are smart. But if you know you can sell to someone who will pay 3 times more than the "musician rate", who are you going to market to?

I'll use my Thomas Moser analogy again. He builds a simple shaker hall table that sells from almost any other builder for $600 - he sells it for $1100. Why? Because its a Thomas Moser, and he spent many many years building that brand.

Success is rarely and accident.

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Mitch

{This is sort of a tangent to the topic.} More and more, I am convinced that no one guitar can "do it all", and that trying to make one guitar do it all guarantees a compromise. If I ever sold guitars that I built, I think I would design a model, and then engineer two versions of that model: one for solo studio recording/living room playing, and one for stage performing/touring. The stage version might have a stiffer back, a smaller diameter radius back, a thicker top with beefier bracing, less bling, and would not use brittle woods (like Ziricote) for backs and sides. The solo recording version would be more delicate, engineered to allow the more subtle nuances to be heard, and could exhibit more bling and could use more delicate (less road-worthy) wood in its construction. (The reason I say "solo" recording is from my understanding of the difficulty of recording more responsive acoustic guitars in the same area where other instruments, or stage monitors, are vibrating the soundboard. For "live" stage recording or ensemble/band recording, I'd think the stage/touring axe would be the one to use.)

If the buyers understood what the engineering considerations were for the intended targeted use of the instrument, maybe they would be more understanding when the instrument could not "do it all", and more appreciative when it met it's designed functionality well. Maybe occasionally it would even lead to more sales of pairs of instruments to working pros.

Back on topic, though I have played guitars from some of the middle price point builders of high-end guitars, I have never played a $10K to $25K guitar. If they really are discernibly *better*, and not just well-branded, I may never know. My gut says Brock is right, but I don't have the playing time (or the chops) on the megabuck instruments to verify that.

Dennis

{edit} hahahaha I just posted that, and then looked at the post with a photo of me playing a $125,000 guitar! Oh well, I guess I have played an expensive guitar.

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Sure. I know some have worked 20 years to become an "overnight success."

Clearly all of these guys have spent their time on the craft.

Specifically though, what I am referring to is when economic theory goes ploooey and demand increases as prices rise. The higher the price, the more people are enamored with them, and the more orders the builders receive.

Whether it is in guitars or tulip bulbs, I have always been very facinated with this. My wonder is it purely organic, of can it be engineered?

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Thanks rick...

You don't by chance know what date/edition of AG focused on Jeff's work do you? I would be very curious to see that.

I agree with you though about Kevin Ryan, it is very obvious he has put a lot of thought, money and effort into his brand.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I don't think there is any question that it can be engineered. The bigger question is can it be sustained?

At some point in time almost all things "novel" become a "commodity". This is when the price goes back down the other way and there are "enough" of them around that they don't merit "collector" status. In this light, the "Artists" have the edge, simply because a Rembrandt orginal can never become a commodity item, given its rarity, etc.

In this light, a well-branded high dollar guitar lives as long as its creator's name. Do you see a lot of $15K Gibsons or martins? They are more the commodity than the piece of art. There's the difference and the struggle. How do you market your wares such that you create the mystique of it being a functional work of art, worthy of the high $$ you want for it?

The person who pays big money for hand built guitars is probably not as interested in its sound as they are in its story, or heritage. If they were, they'd be buying lower priced units or, before long, chinese knock-offs. To market to this person, you need to make a great story, worthy of the great instrument you create.

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Mitch

I think the Traugott article (written by Richard Johnston of Gryphon) came out in 1997 or '98. He doubled his prices within a year of it...and kept on going... He does build incredibly fine instruments.

I don't see a lot of new $15,000.00 Gibsons, but there are a lot of new Martins sold for that and way more. They're special editions and custom shop instruments...and they're really nice guitars...

Exactly my point - they have their commodity line, and they have their "special editions" that are priced significantly higher, capitalizing on the Martin heritage...now, are they really THAT much nicer than the $5k models? Don't you think that is "engineering" their market?

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Mitch

I had wondered if this discussion would actually have some civility and truthfulness, but I can see that it has taken an amazing turn. One I am sure is an honest evaluation.

I have played the "high dollar" guitars, and to tell you the truth some of them were not worth a fraction of what they were priced at. Some of them genuinely were top notch guitars with craftsmanship that was over the top.

Clearly the popular guitar companies build for the masses and price their guitars accordingly. Occasionally they will produce an exceptional guitar, and price it much higher than their others and most living room guitar players will accept that they are worth the extra money using what ever reasoning they can come up with.

Then, you have buyers that are collectors, and what they want is completely different. They want the over the top craftsmanship and finish, as well as playability, but they have no intentions of ever playing this guitar in public or as a professional. They are willing to pay for a brand of guitar if the builder says it is worth extra money. Maybe it has some extra pearl or abalone to make it look special??

Then you have the professional musician who needs a good looking guitar that records well. They are willing to pay a little extra for a guitar that is "purpose built" to do one particular task. I agree that this purpose built guitar will most likely never see the road, but it's purpose to produce a particular sound or tonal quality is worth the extra money.

I have built all 3 kinds, but by far the most of my work is going to people that are living room musicians wanting a better guitar for reasonable money (even a slight bit more than the big companies sell their best guitars) or professional musicians that want a special purpose guitar for their collection of guitars.

Personally, I like to think my guitars will be played and enjoyed by whomever buys them. I'm not crazy about the idea of one of my guitars being a museum piece or hidden in a locked closet only to be an "investment." This is one of the reasons that most of the guitars featured in fretboard journal and guitar maker magazines don't interest me at all. I want my "Brand" to be an extremely playable guitar with exceptional tone.

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Reguards,

Ken H

It was issue #31, July, 1995

I think that article was a huge step in igniting the custom guitar market for everyone.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

The builder and what is being built for. Looks, stage, collection, rich guys who buy guitars because of the name, what is reason buying. I think agreeing with Rick here, and mean too. I know builder who builds for pro's and their main concern is the sound and playability, and duribility. They sure want them to look good, but they are not taking a 10K guitar on the road. They want a tool that si going to last and be a working tool. Sure they will buy and do buy the higher priced stuff but for collection or studio work or other reasons, where they can control the enviroment of the guitar and keep it nice. Others he builds for are for different reasons. Lot of rich guys just buy the name, and know getting a great playing and sounding guitar, but want or like the higher end price and appointments. They may play a little or for fun, church, many reasons, but not wanting a tool, but a collection item, investment, or just really great guitar and don't mind paying the price.

Name means a bunch. You could I think take a builder,say Rick with his name on and put that on the market (whatever medium) and then put a different name on one (ok mine) built by him. Same woods, appointments, whatever, just different names and logos on same venuses, Which one do you think will bring the highest price? I know the answer, not mine. Want the big dollars, build the name, and prove it over time.