Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

grain filler!!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15899		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  rjcguitar [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  grain filler!!
Hi all,
THANK YOU for the warm welcome to the board!
I seem to be having a problem with grain fillers, maybe it is my technique or hopefully :lol: the material. I am using the water based filler from StewMac..........i don't like it!! I am in the process of replacing the complete headstock on a Les Paul Standard. I mixed in some Tobacco brown dye with the filler and applied 3 coats to the new mahogany, sanding and using a squeege between each application. I then applied 4-5 coats of Nitro mixed with the dye and when it dried I saw ALL the grain of the wood!! FRUSTRATING!!! [headinwall]

What brand do you guys use or what is the best technique for this? I can't remember what I used while in school, but it worked perfect.

THANK YOU in advance!!

-Rick
Author:  KenH [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Do a search for "ZPoxy finishing resin" and you should come up with the preferred way to fill pores.

It has had quite a lot of threads on here and you should figure out how to use it from there.


This link Should help you get started... it was a good discussion on pore filling


Welcome to the forum!
Author:  John How [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
I'm guessing that most here who finish their own guitars use Z-poxy or West Systems epoxy. I use water based stains a lot for my finish's so I need a water based fillier. I use Stewmacs so here is my technique.
After sanding with 320, I brush on the filler and give it a couple minutes to start gelling. Then instead ofscraping it off which I find pulls it out of the pores, I blot it with a apaper towel making sure not to remove all of it. Give it a couple hours to dry and sand. I usually repeat the process and I'm done. Then on to staining or whatever.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Rick buddy using the Stew-Mac water based pore filler was the single most frustrating experience in guitar building that I have ever had..... [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] I hated the stuff..... And I reviewed my technique many times, called Stew-Mac and spoke to them and still it was terrible.

Then I discovered System III sold by LMI which was great and solved all my pore filling issues. Later I tried Z-Poxy "finishing resin" not the 5 and 30 minutes epoxies also made by Z-Poxy and I liked that even more than SIII since SIII is not forgiving in the mix ratio.

I also hear and believe that West Systems is also excellent but I have not used it yet.

You can find Z-Poxy finishing resin at Woodcraft stores and LMI.
Author:  burbank [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
I usually just use Z-Poxy, which does a nice job of flling and sealing in one step. But sometimes I want to have the colored filler create a contrast between the pores and the wood. This was done on old Martin necks.

If that is the look I'm after, I stain first.
Wash coat of shellac, which seals the wood and keeps it from absorbing the color of the filler, except for the pores. Sand very lightly.

Filler, mashed into the pores, then wiped cross-grain with burlap after it dries enough to lose its gloss.

Another wash coat of shellac, which seals the filler that's in the pores and keeps the filler from sucking up the finish coats. Sand very lightly.

Finish coats.

Much more work than clear epoxy fillers, but looks very nice if you want a dark finish on mahogany.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
I find myself doing exactly as Pat does more often than not and for the same reasons.
I really like the color I get using the colored pore fillers I get from LMI. Seal first with whatever you are comfortable with ( I use a vinyl sealer, 2 coats sprayed on and sanded when dry) then work my pore filler in, let it get an initial set and either blot or drag lightly across the grain with
soft cloth. After the 2nd application, I'm pretty much ready to go, the surface is flat and I can seal it. It does take a little time but I like the look of the colored poor filler on Mahogany necks especially, use it on the body as well, rosewood or mahogany. I'm using the french polish technique on a large 12 fret D body now, it's mahogany, and the pore filling worked well, the time to achieve a good finish is reasonable and the pores don't soak up the finish. I'm sure the
epoxy would work well and probably be a bit quicker, I will be using it on the next Tele body I do.
Best
Bruce
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
You will find that people tend to think that the product they have learned to use is necessarily the preferred one. Restoration work calls for a less dogmatic approach.

First off, throw away the water based. Worst possible choice. [BTW, John, why would the use of water based dyes necessitate using water-based filler?]

Second off, you're not going to match the look of the rest of your neck or rest of the guitar with epoxy filler.

So what's left? Solvent based silex type fillers, which are those originally used on Gibsons and almost all other American factory guitars that have nitrocellulose lacquer finishes. Using them takes a little skill; you can find the process described in any book on wood finishing. Bob Flexner's book is a must-have reference. No point in rewriting what has already been written many times.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Oh sure Howard just be like Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now and waltz on by tossing a severed head in our laps with nary an application detail........ :D :lol:
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Anybody ever used plain ole sheetrock mud?
I used to finish Steinway pianos for a guy and I would use sheetrock mud and dye it black. Worked great, easily sandable etc.
I confess I have never tried it on a guitar.
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Howard, why don't you like water-based filler? I have not used the Stew-mac variety, but I have used a lot of Behlen's water-based pore filler and it's good stuff. It shrinks less than oil-based filler and it dries much quicker. Also, the water-based filler has the additional trick of taking a certain type of stain after application of the filler if so desired. Oil based filler can't do this.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Robbie O'Brien wrote:
Anybody ever used plain ole sheetrock mud?
I used to finish Steinway pianos for a guy and I would use sheetrock mud and dye it black. Worked great, easily sandable etc.
I confess I have never tried it on a guitar.



Yes,Robbie I am using joint copound on the reccomendation of a friend of mine.
It works very well.
Author:  Ricardo [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
My experience: thumbs down on the Stewmac grain filler, thumbs up on Z-poxy!
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
BarryDaniels wrote:
Howard, why don't you like water-based filler? I have not used the Stew-mac variety, but I have used a lot of Behlen's water-based pore filler and it's good stuff. It shrinks less than oil-based filler and it dries much quicker. Also, the water-based filler has the additional trick of taking a certain type of stain after application of the filler if so desired. Oil based filler can't do this.


I've only used the LMI "microbead," but it was reason enough not to take the risk again. Dried too fast; difficult to remove excess. Appeared to be a good fill, and then disppeared into the pores upon being lacquered (perhaps having only bridged them, although I forced it in with a squeegee). Had to relacquer the back and sides of the two guitars I tried it on. So maybe there are better water based fillers, but I've heard of about the same experience from people using other brands.

Hesh, I'm sorry, but I'm a slow typist and have no secret knowledge about using filler.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Brad Goodman wrote:
Robbie O'Brien wrote:
Anybody ever used plain ole sheetrock mud?
I used to finish Steinway pianos for a guy and I would use sheetrock mud and dye it black. Worked great, easily sandable etc.
I confess I have never tried it on a guitar.



Yes,Robbie I am using joint copound on the reccomendation of a friend of mine.
It works very well.


And you can dye it any color you desire, doesn't shrink and it sure sands easily.
Author:  rjc guitar [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
wow....didn't mean to start something here!!

I first thought the sheetrock mud was a joke! but maybe it might just work!! I will have to try it on a scrap piece.

Thanks for all the advice and ideas, I will give them all a try

-Rick
Author:  Guest [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
I have been using the S3 clear coat with good success. I but part A in a 60cc medical syringe and part B in a 30 cc, giving 2:1 mix. The accuracy seems to work well even in small volumes. Critical mix ratio is easier in large bulk volumes where a few cc.s difference doesn't matter. Small volumes need fairly accurate measures. The syringes are cheap and air tight between uses.
Author:  John How [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Howard Klepper wrote:

First off, throw away the water based. Worst possible choice. [BTW, John, why would the use of water based dyes necessitate using water-based filler?]



I tried the microbeads without success as well and I admit that the Stewmac filler is not the best either but it suits my needs better than anything else I've tried.

I like to apply the stain directly to the wood, push it around, rub it with steel wool and generally mess with it and when you apply an oil based substance to the wood, the stains I use won't be absorbed into the wood which is one of the properties I use in my finish process.
Author:  Pat Redmiles [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Actually, the drywall mud may not be as radical as it sounds. Isn't the ground filler used by some violin makers somewhat similar to drywall mud? At least it's easier to sand than epoxy!!
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
Epoxy finishing resins like Z-Poxy, S III sand as easily as wood and not like the 5 and 30 minute varieties.
Author:  Pat Redmiles [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
I'll have to try the finishing resins - all I have is the West 30 minute epoxy. Are the finishing type epoxies clearer as well? I'd like less yellowing.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: grain filler!!
John How wrote:
Howard Klepper wrote:

First off, throw away the water based. Worst possible choice. [BTW, John, why would the use of water based dyes necessitate using water-based filler?]



I tried the microbeads without success as well and I admit that the Stewmac filler is not the best either but it suits my needs better than anything else I've tried.

I like to apply the stain directly to the wood, push it around, rub it with steel wool and generally mess with it and when you apply an oil based substance to the wood, the stains I use won't be absorbed into the wood which is one of the properties I use in my finish process.


If it's compatible with your system, you can seal over your stains and then fill.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/