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Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
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Author:  JackBarton [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
I was just watching the part of the Benedetto video where he puts in the side braces. Do you guys rip them yourself or is there a place that sells them? Also, he uses QS Spruce. Do you think there would be any advantage to using QS Honduras Mahogany?
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Jack I don't know if you are building a steel string or an arch top. For steel strings I use side tapes. The purpose of a side brace/tape on a steel string is to stop a crack from running. The tapes are installed under the kerfed linings, easy to install, and add virtually no weight.
Author:  Bill Greene [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Jack:

Short answers to your questions: Yes, rip them yourself usually from small cut off pieces of lower grade wood. No real advantage to mahogany, as the purpose of the brace is really just to prevent cracks from spreading any further than is necessary. Mahog is a nice aesthetic touch though. Don't know of anyplace that sells them, but there "might" be (it would be tough to make much money selling side braces in bulk, unless you could sell A LOT of'em.)

That said, there's lots of ways to handle side braces. A quick search of the archives will produce tons of answers for you, and many more questions, on the solid wood method. I'd also recommend, if you can find it, two other things: look for a photo tutorial that Hesh did on using bias tape. It was excellent. And I'd search for anything Al Carruth has ever said on the subject. You might also look for "stress risers" as a search topic as well.

Good luck with you reading.

Bill

(edit) PS: Well, I see Hesh beat me to it. [uncle]
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Todd Stock did an excellent toot on installing side tapes too. Todd uses HHG which is probably better then what I do which is using thinned Titebond.
Author:  JackBarton [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Thanks guys. That helps me a lot. I'll be building an archtop.
Author:  Philip Perdue [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Although they are not a sponser here you can get mahogany side braces from Blue Mountain Acoustics and Exotic Woodworks. Kevin Murray has done a good job with my orders. He also sells on Ebay under the name of rivdriftr where he has 1 negative feeback out of 4090 total.

Philip
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Since John Watkins has been down most of this past year I have been carving my own necks again.

What does this have to do with side brace your asking your self.

Well when I cut out my laminated neck block to rough length it leaves me with a good bit of drop that I recycle into spars for side braces. What is really cool is that doing so leaves me with side brace spars that match my neck lamination. I trim off the mahogany outer portions, sand to remove all traces of glue and Mahogany, leaving only my three center laminates. So if my center laminates on my neck are lets say Curly Maple/IRW/Curly Maple then so are my side braces. :D
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Now that's a cool tip, even if it did come out of Texas! [clap] [clap] :D
Author:  Ricardo [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
I think some luthiers use popsicle sticks.
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Another option that some of use, is that we use "double sides" We glue 2 side panels together after bending. This makes the need for side braces obsolete. A much bigger step, but in the long run very worthwhile in my opinion
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
azimmer1 wrote:
Another option that some of use, is that we use "double sides" We glue 2 side panels together after bending. This makes the need for side braces obsolete. A much bigger step, but in the long run very worthwhile in my opinion


Hey Andy,
Have you weighed a set of double sides against a standard side yet? I know that you use two thin pieces to equivalent to a standard side thickness but was just curious as to how the lamination epoxy or glue affected the mass.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Here's yet another way. It's hard to see but these run under the linings.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Kent Chasson wrote:
Here's yet another way. It's hard to see but these run under the linings.


kent, i have been pondering this for a while and i love the way your side braces look! i would like to use a thin piece of wood that runs under the linings, but i havent figured out exactly how i want to make the pocket for the brace. would you mind sharing your process? have you done the same thing with reverse kerf linings?
Author:  Jon L. Nixon [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Quote:
Here's yet another way. It's hard to see but these run under the linings.



Wow, Kent, that is slick! Would love to know how you get it all to fit.
Author:  Greg [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
I agree with the side tapes. Soak in water diluted titebond and stick them on before kerfed linings.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Thanks. I used to have some photos of the process somewhere but I'm not finding them at the moment.

I just rout the profile and use a little spindle sander of the same radius (maybe 1-1/2" ?) in the drill press to sand the slot in the linings. I stack the two linings, tape them together and sand them both at once.

If that doesn't make sense, let me know and I should be able to take some more photos tomorrow.
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Michael
I have not weighed the double sides, but my guess is that it would be slightly more than the same thickness alone.
The epoxy adds some weight.
On the other hand, I build many cocobolo guitars and the inner lining of EIR is clearly lighter than the cocobolo. I would bet my epoxied sides with EIR and cocobolo would weigh less that a set on sides of cocobolo alone
No data but a hunch.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
kent, that makes perfect sense. thanks for sharing. it figures that it would be that simple. im guessing that you route the brace when it is in a thicker form and then rip the rounded edge? i love the look.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
hblair wrote:
im guessing that you route the brace when it is in a thicker form and then rip the rounded edge? i love the look.


Yes. Good blade on the table saw and it's ready to glue.

Gluing it all up is a bit finicky. The best method for me is to glue one side of the linings making sure you don't get so much glue squeeze out into the recess that the side brace won't fit. Then slide the side braces in and glue on the other side of the linings at the same time. You can also glue the whole thing up in one shot but it's a bit stressfull getting it all done fast enough.

I'm working on an easier way to use a similar concept with taller braces. On some sides (like the flat sections of mahogany dreads or with any figured or squirrely wood) I really like using stiffer braces.
Author:  Jody [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
if i may ask , what is the dreaded " key crack" and where does it usualy occure ?
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
If I may add my 2¢ I would say that if the side braces run under the linings, the end grain of the side braces should probably not meet the top and back flush. Expansion/contraction risks pushing the plates, thus potential cracks on the top and back.
I've done it and relieved the side braces of maybe .020" with a 1/8" chisel after the rim was bowl sanded (or planed to the top/back curves, whatever the method). Looks clean and cool though.

Jody wrote:
if i may ask , what is the dreaded " key crack" and where does it usualy occure ?

On the flat part of the sides after the waist on dreadnaughts.
Author:  John Mayes [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
I used to use larger rosewood, or mahogany side braces. Looking back I think the ones I used for a while are horribly ugly and inelegant. Now I use rather thin pyramid shaped spruce or mahogany braces.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
laurent wrote:
If I may add my 2¢ I would say that if the side braces run under the linings, the end grain of the side braces should probably not meet the top and back flush. Expansion/contraction risks pushing the plates, thus potential cracks on the top and back.
I've done it and relieved the side braces of maybe .020" with a 1/8" chisel after the rim was bowl sanded (or planed to the top/back curves, whatever the method).


Yes, I had that concern at first but then thought about all the people that run their back braces through the lining, rout the binding channel, and then cap the brace ends with binding. Never heard of a problem there and that's on a 15" - 16" span. And by that logic, butting them tight to the linings would be problematic too, adding to the stress riser there or even causing a split. But it can't hurt anything to do what you suggest.
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
I may be wrong here, but in general wood does expand longitudinally when it swells correct?
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Side Braces. How do you do it? What do you use?
Lance Kragenbrink wrote:
I may be wrong here, but in general wood does expand longitudinally when it swells correct?


Yes, but at a small fraction of the amount that it does radially (in width for quartersawn) or tangentially (in width for flat sawn) or anything in between.

Why do you ask?

I think what Laurent was getting at was a concern that, if the sides shrink due to low humidty, the side braces would stay about the same length and, if left flush originally, would protrude from the sides potentially causing the top or back to pop loose or split in that spot. Personally, I think the glue won't creep that much and the differential will be taken up in other ways, as happens with other cross grain braces.
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