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First Two Planes
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15907		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
You have to ask your self Do I want to learn to tune a plane and its parts or even spend the time to do so If I already know how. (yes we all should know how if we plan to use them).

If you answer affirmative to the question then there are lots of good planes companies out there at affordable rates.

If you want to take it out of the box and go. then Lie-Nielsen is the only plane I have ever been able to do this with.

Now for planes to get for a newbie guitar builder/luthier
#5, #6 or #7, a good finger plane and a good spoke shave. I think these are the first planes to acquire
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
My first two planes arrived about six weeks ago, and I've enjoyed experimenting with them. The purposes were for jointing plates and quickly creating triangular profiles on braces.

LN #5
LN Model Maker's plane

The Model Maker's plane is nice and somewhat inexpensive, but I found out the cuts it takes are much less aggressive than I imagined they'd be. .005" and thinner. It will take quite a few more passes to triangulate the braces than my chisel. Then again, they'll be more uniform.

The #5 is awesome. I've really enjoyed experimenting and testing with it. I've been working on my skills by practicing with it, but so far my joints aren't perfect. They're perfect through the first 2/3rd's of the joint, and veer off towards the end, leaving a small gap between the plates when I place them against a window.

I sharpened each blade to 8000.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
James, do you use a shooting board when you joint? I recently made one for jointing sides and back, for example, and it works so well, it astonished me at how effortless it was. I will take pics when I get home.

The low angle block can be used for all sorts of things and should be included as one of the first three planes one gets, imo. I like my adjustable mouth LN a lot.
Author:  James Orr [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
Hey Steve

I made a ramped shooting board so that that board contacts different sections of the blade as the blade moves along. I think it's just going to take practice to be sure that my pressure is even in the front and back of the plane. I've been a bit front heavy with my grip, and I think that's pushed the joint forward towards the final quarter of the joint.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
this question should probably be answered by someone more experienced than i am, but since i may be in the same boat as some others out there just getting started, i thought id share what i bought. i have just a small amount of input, as i did things a bit backwards. i spent a lot of money a while back on large machines and never really messed around much with hand tools. they work great for most jobs, but especially in guitar building, some hand planes are indespensable. so i purchased some inexpensive planes knowing they would not be that great and would require lots of work to get them in good working condition. that being said, i bought a #5, a block plane, a spoke shave (all from grizzly) and a 10mm blade ibex finger plane. i believe all will serve a purpose and look forward to getting some good use from them.

on shooting boards (sorry to high jack a bit): im getting ready to build myself one, but have never actually used one. please tell me if i am wrong, but shouldnt the plane itself, if used correctly on a a shooting board, keep the joint straight. what i mean is, the portion of the sole on the underside of the joint will rub against the shooting board and stop you from creating a joint that is not straight. im doing a really bad job of explaning this, sorry. maybe this will help...

http://www.whitemountdesign.com/ShootingBoard.htm

about a third of the way down the page there is a picture of the shooting board with some blue tape and an eplanation. this is a really great page explaining the shooting board.
Author:  Ricardo [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
Problem with using planes on shooting boards is the tendency to rock the plane at each end resulting in gaps between the halves at the bottom and top. With experience you can compensate for this. I found it easier to put sand paper on the edge of a long level and run that along the edges. I get much better joins this way than I did with planes.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
My shooting board has a cleat on the bottom for clamping in my end vise. I square the wood pieces with a square and I get perfect joints, no problem. I hold the plane like this and this way it seems easy to shoot a straight edge. I have done this a few times though. James, I'd like to see your board!

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Author:  SteveCourtright [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
Heath, I just saw your post, the linked page is basically where I got the arrangement for mine. Mine, however, was made long enough for truing instrument sides and other long boards.
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
For the first two planes I would go for a #5 (or 5 1/2) and a low angle block plane, as to brand, well I've never bought a new full size plane in my life, I enjoy tuning planes and an old Stanley or Record well prepared will be the equal of any new plane out there at a fraction of the cost. I often, as with my latest guitar, build entirely with hand tools as I enjoy the process, well my old Stanley #5 was used to thickness the back/sides and top with ease.

As to using the planes with a shooting board, well I use a longer sacrificial piece of wood under the pieces I'm jointing and that stops the tendency to rock the plane on the start and finish.

Colin
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
I was going to type up a post, but then Colin said everything I would have, and better, so... what he said!
Author:  CypressGroove [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
Ricardo wrote:
Problem with using planes on shooting boards is the tendency to rock the plane at each end resulting in gaps between the halves at the bottom and top. With experience you can compensate for this. I found it easier to put sand paper on the edge of a long level and run that along the edges. I get much better joins this way than I did with planes.


How are you making your shooting boards?

I've just started using them, but already I'm completely in love with them. From everything I've read from various sources, and from my limited experiences so far; the reason a shooting board works so well for everything from getting perfect 90 degree angles to long mitre joints is because the plane's movement is guided by the edge and sole against the shooting board, not against the workpiece at all. I know I was shooting 10mm thick cedar last weekend, somtimes using nothing more than little LA block plane (end-grain) and ended up absolutely confidant that when I took a full-width, full-length shaving across the entire work and pressed it against another edge I'd done this way; it would pass the candle test.

I got my ideas from this link (particularly the its not rocket science bit) http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/shootingboards.html

Maybe for those who are 'rounding' at the end you could knock up another shooting board with more of the board left after the stop so the toe of your plane has more to rest on? Don't know it it would help you, migth be wirth a try, it's only scrap you use for the baord anyway, right?

Obviousy, if you're using a shooting board to joint it is critical that you have a plane who's side is precisely 90 degrees to it's sole, and an iron that is ground completel square and properly aligned, otherwise the edge will not be 90 degrees to the faces etc etc, but I don't think you guys need any more eggs to suck from me today anyway, so I'll shut up...
Author:  James Orr [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
Steve, those are the kind of pictures that make me want a #4, too. :) Is that a #4?

I was holding mine just like yours initially, and then I went to holding the front knob and handle to see if it would even out my pressure.

My board is essentially just like yours, but one end is elevated an inch and a quarter over the length of the soundboard. That way, as the plane moves along it, the soundboard is in contact with different areas of the blade. The idea is to have more even wear on the blade. The manager of my local woodworking store suggested it to me when he taught me how to adjust the blade. I was initally setting the cut much too deep.

I wish I could take some pics. I lost my camera batteries :D
Author:  charliewood [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
The first two files I was told to get were the low angle block
(mine ended up being a LA block rabbet as thats all they had in Lie Nielsen blocks at the place I bought mine - but Im completely happy with it)
and a #4 Lie Nielsen -
Now I got LN because I wanted something I could use right out of the box with practically no fuss and also I had the money to afford them!
As ToddStock has reiterated so many times - theres no need to take out a mortgage as
a vintage well tuned Stanley plane will do as good a job or better, and are much cheaper -

I also got a LN scraper plane, a Lie Nielsen spokeshave & several Ibex curved sole models for eventual plans I have to build an archtop or two,,,
and then theres the 2 rosewood mini's from LV -- a mini block and chisel (they exceptionally good cutters!) I got them for for bracework, but have yet to test them in this scenario...
My most recent purchase was a LN #7 jointer because I wanted to join tops and backs without power tools... I am loving that beast!!! Its heavy but very nice and was dead flat and razor sharp out of the box,,,
I have many on the wishlist,,, next purchase being LV low angle block with tote and front knob attachments - A Primus reform smoother - A LN bevel up jointer etc etc

confession: I am building some infils as well - nuff said
So the Moral is
my love affair with planes hasnt taken long to blossom...
this is extremely common
Be Forewarned!! ;)
Cheers
Charliewood
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
James, you are close; it's a 4 1/2, which makes it hard to push through cherry, for instance when leveling a table top or the like, but better for smoothing than a narrower plane.

Yours is an interesting idea and maybe would cut a bit easier, like skewing the plane to lower the effective blade angle to the wood.

As far as cutting depth goes, I have read that your first passes, when the blade is set correctly (for a fine cut) will only produce a sort of dust. Then as the cutting surface becomes flat, you will get a continuous shaving. If your first pass gets a lot of wood, you might be too deep. I wish I could show you how I do it. I have planed a lot of wood in the last 15 years, and it certainly is a learned skill, and I confess that sometimes the planes still do not behave. It is a little like my playing, actually, inconsistent... I counsel lots of practice with a properly tuned plane. Good for the sole.
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
The angled shooting board is probably a good idea for cabinetmaking, but for jointing tops and backs you would want to have the same area of the plane in contact all the way along for the best accuracy.
Jeff
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
As I said, I use a shooting board and a #5 to joint tops and backs. The rocking of the plane at the ends is easy to avoid by using a sacrificial piece of wood under the wood that is longer at both ends than the wood you are jointing. The plane then starts to cut that piece of wood before the blade starts on the top or back pieces and cuts it after the blade passes them. That way when the plane starts to make the joint on the top or back pieces it is already running perfectly straight. As soon as you are taking a full length shaving on the wood you are jointing, you have a perfect full length straight joint.

Colin
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
Colin S wrote:
As I said, I use a shooting board and a #5 to joint tops and backs. The rocking of the plane at the ends is easy to avoid by using a sacrificial piece of wood under the wood that is longer at both ends than the wood you are jointing. The plane then starts to cut that piece of wood before the blade starts on the top or back pieces and cuts it after the blade passes them. That way when the plane starts to make the joint on the top or back pieces it is already running perfectly straight. As soon as you are taking a full length shaving on the wood you are jointing, you have a perfect full length straight joint.

Colin


That is an excellent tip Colin - Thank You! I'll be picking up some 36" poplar at the Borg this week end as a result. [clap] [clap] [clap]
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
But, when you build a shooting board. The guide board must still be trued with a large plane before it gets glued to the base board?
Author:  Richard Wilson [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: First Two Planes
My shooting board consists of nothing more than a 3/4" length of MDF which I clamp, along with the halves, to my bench. I've never bothered with a plane guide along the bottom because the process as is takes about 5 minutes (10 if the wood or plane are being difficult) to get a perfect joint. I use a #7... about 95% of the job is done within a minute and keep a straightedge at hand to check the edge against every few strokes. If went with a guide edge I'm sure it'd take a small amount of the guesswork out of it, but I don't really like the idea of keeping a 40+ inch length straight enough to be a reference edge given the wear it'll be subjected to over time.
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