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| The Flamenco has begun http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15938 |
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| Author: | KenH [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | The Flamenco has begun |
Well, sort of... I got the plans for the Flamenco in the mail yesterday and was able to read over all of the notes and verbage on them. I have a couple of questions for those of you who have built from these pland before: First off, I see this note: Attachment: note1.jpg I wonder what they mean by "Negative" relief??? Can anybody elaborate on this?? Next, I see this note: Attachment: note2.jpg Does this mean that Ineed to dig a 2mm hole in the solera or do I need to prop up the fingerboard2mm?? These 2 notes seem to be in contrast with each other?? Also, I started building the solera. I glued together 2 pieces of 1/2" MDF to make a 1" thick mdf solera to work with. SHould be thick enough and it is reasonably flat too. Attachment: solera1.jpg I'll try to keep this updated as things progress..... Thanks for looking!! |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
Hmm. About that 2mm distance. Yes it should be about the 2mm deep dig in the solera indeed. The normal dig-in is about 3mm for a classical, and 2mm makes sense for a flamenco. You can do it with a perfectly flat solera too (i think this is the old school method), but then you'll need to taper the fingerboard all way along it. For example 6-7mm at the 1st fret, 4 at the last. How much doming affects that too. Torres' tops have aggressive doming as far as I read so far. I don't understand the negative first bit. It might be a reverse taper of the fingerboard? |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
Ken, I was a bit mystified when I saw that "negative relief" thing as well. It is hard to tell if that was Barbero's original intent, or the result of refretting without proper sizing of the tang/slots causing the .010" back bow that Brune' mentions. I was working on a replica of this guitar a year or so ago, but decided to bail on it because I felt it would send me in a direction opposite to where I wanted to go (sold what I had done thus far as a "KIT" on ebay...) but had I completed it, I was going to shoot for a flat board with a low bridge. Another easy way to incorporate the 2-3mm "lift" on a flat solera is to find a piece of matte board the appropriate thickness, profile it to the top shape and insert it under the top when gluing the neck/top/back. If you clamp and align the nut end it will give you the desired "lift". You also have the option of tapering the board to achieve this as well........in a practical sense I find myself doing some of both to achieve the desired neck angle. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
The discussion of the 2mm lift on the drawing confused me. Does this imply that the 2mm is a forward set of the neck, or something else? If you did indeed measure this with a straightedge starting from just in front of the bridge, wouldn't that incorporate the doming of the top, if present? i.e., you could have a neck set in line with a line touching the body at the heel and tail, but if you had a 2mm high dome at the bridge, you'd get the same measurement shown here. |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
I have the plans you just got. My interpretation is that the guitar was built with the a built-in back bow of 2.0 mm. Simiarly, Manuel Reyes builts his guitars with no positive OR negative neck relief - dead flat, and the expectation is that the string tension will pull the neck up where it should be in a couple years (!) I sure wouldn't build it that way and I don't know of anyone else who does. To the best of my knowledge most modern builders of flamenco guitars build in some positive neck relief to provide adequate string clearance to avoid buzzing snf and that two year wait, etc. I use about 1.5 mm positive relief in the neck position and my friend, Robert Ruck, uses about 2.0 mm positive relief as well. Best regards, Max |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
Just to clarify the terms here: I am interpreting as follows: Relief: The measurement deviating from flat seen along the surface of the fretboard, it can be "hollow"/"positive as well as "back bowed"/"negative". The measurement of negative .010" (1/4 mm) as Brune' described in his plan seems plausible....and could be deliberate. Lift: The measurement that the plane of the neck (measured at the nut) deviates upward from the plane of the top. 2-3 mm here is standard though as mentioned above, a domed top makes the actual measurement difficult. Steel string guitars have what I would term "drop" i.e. they angle downward from the plane of the top. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
David LaPlante wrote: Lift: The measurement that the plane of the neck (measured at the nut) deviates upward from the plane of the top. 2-3 mm here is standard though as mentioned above, a domed top makes the actual measurement difficult (my italics - jtkirby). . That's my issue - if measured the way Brune describes on the drawing, how do you determine if it's doming or forward set without measuring the doming as well? I suppose that, in the end, it's only the sum of the two effects that matters, and you can create it at either end? The falling away top on a Romanillos/Bogdanovich wedged workboard isn't domed in the same sense as the workboard described by Courtnall, so there has to a a different relation with the forward set of the neck? (or tapering of fretboard?) Anyway, Go Ken Go! I'll be watching with interest! |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
The Romanillos seems to be very close to a flat neck type of solera. The dish is moved up while the neck goes down, almost cancelling each other. In the end it needs a bit more FB tapering. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
That's it Ken, you build it the way you interpret the plans. We'll all be looking over your shoulder. If it comes out wrong, we'll make notes.   I interpreted the .010 back bow as intentional to create string noise, buzzing, and actual string contact with the frets, when vibrating, to generate additional percussive sounds as he said. Don't lots of Flamenco players prefer very low and buzzy action? Don't think I've ever heard any clean Flamenco. Seems like it would loose it's warmth. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
AlexM wrote: The Romanillos seems to be very close to a flat neck type of solera. The dish is moved up while the neck goes down, almost cancelling each other. In the end it needs a bit more FB tapering. Which makes it very Torres like - everything in line and fretboard tapered? Where did the wedge in the top, falling away from the plane of the upper bout, originate from? |
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| Author: | KenH [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
I dont think I mentioned it, but this is a 1952 Barbero Flamenco (ex sabicas). This is going to be an interesting build for several reasons. 1. This is my first classical/ flamenco 2. it is going to be left handed. 3. it is going to be a cutaway. 4. it is a comission from a locally famous artist, Goliath Flores (http://www.goliathflores.com) As far as I know, you cant go to guitar center and buy a left handed cutaway flamenco. This is what Goliath wanted, and He was sent to me by one of my former customers who is thrilled with his guitar that I built. We had discussions about my lack of experience in classicals, but he was willing to pay the price, so Here I go with it. I'm excited already and havent even joined the top plates yet. The top is going to be lutz spruce. The back and sides are going to be spanish cypress and the neck spanish cedar. All of the parts and pieces are here and waiting except for the bridge. I'll have to make one of those when it gets time. |
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| Author: | vachterman [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
i think i'll be able to help you here Ken(and the rest) as i've spent some time discussing the plan with with Brune himself. here is some of our e-mail correspondence regarding the 51 Barbero: "...as you note, the drawing does not indicate any top doming, at least in terms of the cross struts nor fans. I did not observe any, so I didn't indicate any doming on the drawing, since it is my intention to document the instruments as they are, not as I think they ought to be or may have been. However, if you note, the bridge does have some arch to the bottom, and I believe Barbero limited any top doming to whatever arch the bridge was given, as the top is flexible enough to take on the slight arch of the footprint of the bridge when it is glued to the top. Possibly the top and back originally had a very slight amount of arch (dome) but none is apparent now, so if it was present, dryness and shrinkage have removed any original evidence of it. I have seen Barberos with and without doming, at least as far as the backs go, rarely any visible on the top, aside from whatever small amount is imparted by the arched bridge..." "...the typical Spanish solera has the neck angle built into it, the neck is held in this slightly upward position, and gluing on the back locks this into position, further reinforced by the installation of the fingerboard, which is planed on the glue surface to account for the very slight angle imparted by the work board..." and as for the negative relief, it is indeed a slight back-bow to the neck, giving the player a buzz when he plays lower down the neck but gives a clear sound when you play higher up the neck, be it 'soloing'(falseta) or simply using a 'capo'(cejilla). Brune maintains that it is intentional, and that it can be seen on several other fine old flamenco guitars(early Reyes guitars for example). hope that helps, Udi. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
Good notes to have, Udi. Thanks for sharing that. I know it'll help Ken, as well as the rest of us if we attempt one of these, or any other Flamenco. |
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| Author: | KenH [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
WOW that explains everything!! THANKS!!! I have the solera dry and have cut out 30 pieces of 1 1/4" round dowel to act as the "mold"....replaying what I see Waddy doing with his build. I have cut these to 3" in length and the lowest part of the sides of the guitar are roughly 3 1/4", so that should be a good working height for this guitar. This is going to be a slow process. The first reason is because I havent done it before and the second is that I am still working on the 5 guitars of a set right now. I just thought I could squeeze in a few steps for preparation to build as time permits. I'll try to keep the thread updated as things progress. Thanks for all of the help!! |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
Best of luck with the guitar Ken! You might consider building it with zero relief unless your customer is totally familiar with the negative relief set-up and wants it that way. If string slap is a goal here (?!), you can always set up the action low to create this. Also you will have to consciously toss (or at least shelve) steel string sensibilities about guaging to make a successful Flamenco, The difference in wood thickness from steel to this most lightly built of nylon stringed guitars is dramatic! |
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| Author: | vachterman [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
Ken, are you going with the same scale as the plan calls for? |
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| Author: | KenH [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Flamenco has begun |
I am going to build the guitar as the plans call for with the exception of it being left handed and a cutaway. As far as I can tell, there is only one brace that will need to be reversed in angle to make this a left handed guitar. as far as a cutaway, I'll have to wait and see. right now I am thinking that some sort of a florentine cutaway is in order. |
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