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Shop visitors
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15959		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  KenH [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Shop visitors
Ever since I started building guitars, I have people that call me up and want to come see what I am doing. They dont seem to realize that for someone who does this for a living, time is money. I love to show off my guitars, and I love to hear them played, and believe it or not I dont mind someone seeing how I build them. This poses a couple of problems:

First, I have certain things that I do to guitars that I dont share and I really dont want anyone seeing exactly what I do. It is how I achieve the sound I get and I feel it is proprietary. Unless you build guitars regularly, you wouldnt even notice some of the things if you looked inside them with a mirror. Because of this, there are times when I really dont want anyone in the shop.

Another reason is that I get distracted easily and having someone there at a critical time can distract me and cause me to do somthing that will take hours or days to straighten out later.

Third, it seems like everybody wants to build their own guitars but they have no idea what is involved, the amount of time it takes, and the tools and jigs needed to make it all work.

Some of the people that have invited themself over to my shop seem to think that because I let them in, it means that I am wanting to give them free lessons on how to build guitars. I have been around long enough that all of you know I like sharing what I know, and even share some of the tricks I learned in building. I dont mind this at all, but when it comes to taking time to give free lessons.... I have to draw the line.

How do the rest of you who build as a business handle these kind of people?
Author:  Billy T [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
Well Ken, you could take them to your computer and show them this post! :D

I typically approach such things straight forward but it's difficult for most men to show concern for other mens feelings and cowardly run to suggestions or innuendo. If you express that you really like their company and talking or learning about guitars but this is also a business I'm sure they would understand.

It has to be noticed that they must think your a good guy or they wouldn't come over at all. One thing that may be a concern do you have regular hours or rules. You might suggest that they call first, but then immediately call them to invite them over so they don't think you hate them. These are friends!

But to be honest, sometimes I just squeal a slobbering, rabid... GO AWAY! Works either way! :D

Then there's always the putting them to work! That gets rid of a lot of them too! Vis-a-vis "HEY! Am I glad you showed up! SAND THIS!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  sharp_custom [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
I have the same problem. People often invite themselves over without ever asking and I think this is very rude. I think that those who don't build have no idea about what's involved and think that we're just hanging out in the shop waiting for people to show up. I usually tell them no and present a date and time that suits my schedule better. I work best alone (especially when addressing critical aspects) and get easily distracted with someone looking over my shoulder or fooling around with the jointer while my back is turned. I also find that people get put off when I suggest a different time/date.

I recently had a potential customer invite themselves over. When I suggested a different time or to meet them closer to their home with a few guitars, they basically told me that if they couldn't come to my shop at their time to forget it.

I don't know how to deal with these situations well. I try to be diplomatic but that doesn't always work. That's when I just tell them matter of factly that I am too busy at that time.

I like to show off my wares and talk guitars. I just don't have much tolerance for pushy, inconsiderate people especially when it comes to my shop/business.
Author:  martinedwards [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
Good advice there Todd.

personally I'm a hobby builder but I still have between 200 and 300 people through my shop in any given week.






but then it IS a classroom in the highschool I teach in!!

the only shop visit I've been on was to George Lowden. HE invited me, after closing time on a Friday afternoon.

As to how to limit the time waster element, It's gotta be hard to scare off the time wasters without killing a potential commission
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
I guess I have a different take. I actually enjoy when I have visitors to the shop. Whether they are potentchial customers or just an interested person. I like to show them the tools, jigs, woods, I quite often break out the naphtha and show them some fancy woods and how the grain pops!
There is nothing I do to my guitars that I would consider proprietary, its all been don't before, at least the things that -I- am doing.


Maybe its childish, but its kind of like "Show and tell" for big kids :D
Author:  John How [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
Not a problem for me, I live so far out in the boonies that I rarely get any visiters and I welcome them when I do, If you have some secret process that you don't want to share, then just don't show them. I really don't mind visitors however if I had someone ask me to show them how to build a guitar, I would probably refer them to the olf. I don't have the time or recourses to take an apprentice either.
Author:  Colin S [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
Just make sure your third party insurance is OK before letting people into your workshop.

Colin
Author:  sharp_custom [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
Colin S wrote:
Just make sure your third party insurance is OK before letting people into your workshop.

Colin



That's another issue for me... My insurance doesn't cover anyone but me. So, I have to be very careful.

I don't mind visitors. I actually enjoy the visits I receive. I just think it's common courtesy to call ahead to set something up.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
It is good press, public relations and will eventually lead to work to allow selected visitors to the shop. I do not do work while they are there. I will give a simple explanation of various tasks and show the tools used. Explain in simple terms the various processes. I also explain that I can not work with the distraction of visitors for both insurance purposes as well ans need concentration. I will if I have enough fore warning set up something like a channel and inlay task in advance and give a simple demonstration. but nothing major.

I use to feel the same as you but later found the word of mouth the visits resulted in paid off
Author:  Dave Rector [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
I use the fact that my insurance doesn't cover them as an excuse for not teaching them how to build a guitar. I can't tell you how many people have either called or come by and wanted me to just let them come and hang out and learn to build a guitar.

Personally, I like visitors for the same reasons that Lance stated. I will show them anything I can but I also tell them I don't have the time or the insurance to teach them.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
First of all, isn't it extremely rude to ever go to someones home or shop without calling first to see if it suits. I don't even walk over to my neighbors house unless I call first, unless they're in the yard, and I see them. Unfortunately many people do not learn manners, any more.

I can't say I've had visitors much, other than my neighbor, but not many people know I'm building, and the ones that do, wouldn't come calling, without calling. I couldn't work with someone else in the shop. I'd be too busy talking and showing, but it is not a business.
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
Waddy, you are right, it is rude to not call ahead and just stop by. I would ever want some one to stop by unannounced. Never know what condition my shop could be in :roll:
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
My problem is that I always know what my shop will look like. Even if I clean for a couple of hours. [headinwall]
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
WaddyT wrote:
My problem is that I always know what my shop will look like. Even if I clean for a couple of hours. [headwall]


Another good reason to have visitors now and then. Nothing will improve clean up habits better than necessity. I know this the hard way You'r coming over??? When??? :o
Author:  KenH [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
s I said before, I love showing off my guitars, so this isnt about dealing with potential customers.

What I am talking about is people who just want to "hang out" in my shop and watch me work. SOme of them have even asked to borrow my tools of jigs so they can build their own guitar.

I am a likeable guy and always try to be friendly, but I have to draw the line so that I can get my work done. SOme things I just dont like sharing and I certainly dont loan out my tools. I need them to make a living!

Perhaps scheduling visits for these kind of people is the thing to do. If they get offended because I am too busy to give them my time and or teach them to build a guitar, then so be it.

I'm really just wondering how the rest of you handle this.
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
One of my favorite luthiers simply showed me a piece he was working on for Charlie Christian and said he didn't have too much time because he was trying to finish it up for him. You might just do that. Let them know what you're working on so they know you have other things to do.
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
If it's your job, remind the lookeeloo's that it is such. If they don't get it, explain that they can't simply show up and "hang out" at their favorite mechanic's shop, or hang out with their dentist, right?

the problem is that most of us have our shops at or near our homes, and we tend to work strange hours, so folks tend to think of us as just a buddy who's putzing around in his workshop. Once they realize that it's our business and we run it as such, they understand.

And about the biggest mistake someone can make is to advertise locally, or let the local paper or TV do a bit on you. I've refused such, and even threatened that if they ran such an article or program without my knowledge and approval, I'd have lawyers on their asses in minutes. It's not Grumpy being grumpier, it's just being smart; I know of two guys who literally had to pull up and move their shops after too much local exposure. Do YOU really want every junkie and B&E artist to know what's in your shop? It's not just your buddies that you wish to keep out...
Author:  Richard Wilson [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
MichaelP wrote:
Another good reason to have visitors now and then. Nothing will improve clean up habits better than necessity. I know this the hard way You'r coming over??? When??? :o

Exactly. Someone coming to see the workshop is the perfect excuse to clean up.

In fact for me it was the main catalyst for me to drastically change my shop habits. What was happening in the past was I'd organise a time/date for the visit of a prospective customer and spend days beforehand doing the cleanup that should have been taking place over the months prior. I decided this year that I'd instead prefer to spend all of five minutes at the end of every session in the workshop clearing benches, returning tools to their allocated space and sweeping the floor so that in theory I could be caught completely off-guard by a visitor.

That said I don't list my phone/address online which is my main advertising. If anyone wants to visit they can email me to get my contact details and arrange a date that suits us both. I figure these extra steps let me screen things a bit better as usually they'll say up front if they are interested in buying or not.

If anyone wanted to visit for the sake of learning to build their own I'd probably respond with a list of books, kits and possible instructors and respectfully advise them that this is the best way to go about it. I certainly would never lend out tools or jigs unless it was to a close friend building a guitar, and in this case I'd probably just let them use them in my workshop if I had room/time for the simple reason that I'd be happy to help.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
I don't mind visitors at all - it keeps my stocks of bone nuts and saddles always topped off. Gives a whole new meaning to hide glue too......... Why do you think that they call is Elmer's Glue........

Seriously I greatly enjoy visitors and will do what ever I can to meet their schedule for a visit. I will NOT however use any tools, especially power tools, with a visitor here. First of all is the safety and insurance considerations and secondly I work best alone.

I always promote the idea that you should never miss an opportunity to meet another OLFer. Part of the reason I do this is that not only are we all a very fun bunch...... people who work in solitary disciplines may after a while start to lack social skills. This is true for anyone who spends a great deal of time alone.

Consider your visitors an opportunity to practice your sales chops and presentation skills with little or no risk. Then, when a real qualified prospect for your guitars is interacting with you your people/sales/presentation skills will be potentially sharper.

I live alone but I still put the toilet seat down. Why? Because I never want to get out of practice with common courtesies. Receiving shop visitors when practical for you is as much an opportunity for you as it is an opportunity and interesting for them.

As for exposure to any proprietary methods here - I completely agree with Lance. I do nothing that has not been done prior. In addition the blend of methods that we each individually employ and why we do so will never be obvious to anyone and also requires that "feel" that we develop over time and with experience. Seeing what we do is only part of the story.
Author:  Jamie_M [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
Hesh...as I tell my wife, "If it's common courtesy for me to put the toilet seat down, it's only fair she leave it up for me". Needless to say, it stays down most of the time, however.

And for the record, I agree with Mario about not "advertising" to the world what goes on at my, (or anyone else's), house / shop. Friends pop by announced or unannounced, I don't care, but it's because they're my friends and I trust them - plus guitar making is not my full time occupation...yet.
Author:  ChuckH [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
Unbelievable...:(
I'd just like to say THANK YOU to the few on here that don't mind sharing what they love. I just don't know what to say..........
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
For the record, I enjoy a good visit also, but I like to know you're coming(that's common courtesy) and ya don't come back and just hang out.

I think Serge is the only OLF'er to have visited(he or his wife had an uncle or something that happened to live 1/2 mile from me!), but I'd welcome anyone.

It's the locals that need to be kept at bay....
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
I don't know, I have met a lot of local folks from random visits. I mean they call first, always do. But I have enjoyed meeting them all and welcome more. Truth is, I cant seem to get enough local attention.

Ken, I understand what your saying though, and if your visitors are indeed overstepping there boundaries, you should feel free to tell them. And I know you would do that in a kind and proper way.
Author:  LanceK [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
This just occurred to me, the person playing my guitar in my avatar is a local fella that
just called and came by one day last summer. He has visited me several time since and I always look forward to it.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop visitors
The name on the door tends to keep the B&E and random visitors out. Heck, most people who play guitar have no idea what my business name means. I made sure not to put 'guitars' or 'CNC' under it on the sign, so it's a real mystery...which means when someone I don't know walks in the door, then they've usually got a good reason to be here (unless they have a box of 'fine' kitchen knives or 'great gifts for my wife').

Luthiers coming through is rare, but appreciated, but the ones I really need to watch out for are people from other machine shops who are all so very interested in my fixtures...

In the end, though, you just need to do the same thing you do at a guitar show: figure out if they're there to buy or there to waste your time, and react accordingly in the most diplomatic way that still gets the job done
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