Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15987		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Heath Blair [ Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
im getting ready to glue in the neck and tail blocks on my first build (steel string OM) and with all of the excitement of bending sides and thinking about bracing and all of that other fun stuff, i neglected to put any major thought into what kind of neck joint and neck block type i would like to use. i guess i just thought i would cross that bridge when it came time to make the neck, unfortunately the neck block goes in before the box is closed :) .

i have both the antes OM plans and the plans that mr. john mayes sends with his DVD's. i think i would like to stay away from the UTG and huge UTB that is shown on the antes plans. i feel like there are a ton of options out there and i was just curious what might be a good place to start for a first build. there isnt one method that really puts the fear in me, but i would like to keep it fairly simple for my first time so as to not complicate neck setting and all of that jazz. definitely looking at a bolt on though.

so what should the neck block look like? spanish heel? mortise and tenon? butt joint? id like to have a clear plan and parts that work well together so there are as few surprises as possible. please help.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
personal opinion is you do not want to design a bracing system without the blocks being part of the equation. The neck block type size and material are important to the support of the fb extension an there by affect the design of the utg, utb, total mass of the bracing system. you need to decide on the block dimensions and neck joint type and design the bracing system at the same time.

This is one of the reasons I always tell new builders build to a single given set of proven plans on your first several guitars. trying to mix and match designs will jump up and bit you. Proven plans are proven because the design work as a whole not just based on a particular feature of the plan.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
michael, thanks for your reply. im trying really hard to hear what you are saying. i would not so quickly dismiss something that someone of your experience has advised, but i feel like i dont have enough information to completely use the mayes plans and there has just been so much negative said about the UTG (its basically worthless) on the antes plans.

i was thinking about just getting rid of the UTG and using a spanish heel of sorts under the fretboard extension. i was also thinking of throwing the mortise and tenon out in favor of the butt joint. if you feel like this is a poor choice, i will definitely bow to that. 1) because you know way better than me 2) because i was born in odessa, TX (not really a reason, just wanted to throw that out there).
Author:  Heath Blair [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
was this question just inherently flawed?
Author:  JBreault [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
Heath, if you are planning a but joint, I suggest you take a look at Colin's neck block. That or take a look at what Martin Guitars is doing with their A style bracing. I know that Frank Ford did a little write up of that. In fact, take a look at Frank's site and see his discussion of bracing. I agree with Michael that the neck block in particular is part of the bracing scheme and needs to be considered before any construction begins.
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
I would highly recommend using Hank Mauels neck block. It has a large tounge that supports the fretboard extension. You can skip the popsicle stick brace and just put the UTB infront of it like so. I use this style block every since seeing it.
Thanks Hank!


http://luthiersforum.3element.com/pages/jig_tools_tech/hank_mauel_neck_block.htm

By the way, this is the top for the 13th fret project guitar.
Author:  Ricardo [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
Heath, I don't think you want to use a spanish heel for a steel string due to the impossibility of doing a neck reset in the future. Classicals use spanish heel because of lower stress of nylon strings and no need for neck reset.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
lance, that is exactly what i was looking for! i suppose i was calling it a spanish heel in ignorance, so please forgive me for that. i just knew there was something better than the popsicle brace, but i didnt know exactly what to do. so i think i may have a few questions about it...
Author:  Heath Blair [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
lance, it appears as though the tongue extension in the photo butts up against the UTB. is this correct? on the link you supplied, hank says it should stop just short. do you leave the extension oversized and trim it to fit once the top is braced or do you adjust the position of the UTB slightly to fit?

ok, please forgive me. more questions than a presidential debate. do you glue the extension on to the neck block at 90 degrees and bowl sand the angle you need into it or do you glue it on at angle to closely match the top radius (which i guess isnt much, so maybe trivial)?

also, hanks block looks like end grain glued to long grain. does that work out ok? what size is the hole in the extension and how much meat is left on top of it?

feel free to ignore my uniformed and inexperienced questions. umm... actually, dont ignore me. i really need help. :D thanks.
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
Yes I glue mine up long and trim it to fit. An easy way to do this is lay the rim top side down on the table saw and bring the blade UP through the piece of wood.

Yes I glue it up 90% to the block and sand in the radius.

Yes I glue the long grain to the end grain,. I also drill a 1/2" hole in each side down in to the neck block and glue in a wooden dowel. This may not be needed? Its for insurance.

I don't understand your last question, "what size is the hole in the extension and how much meat is left on top of it?"
I don't cut the truss rod slot like Hank, I use my table saw with multiple passes to widen it. I would rather use a router and bit though, its much cleaner.
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
Oh also, I make the tounge about 1/8th wider than the fretboard at the 14th fret. So it is well supported on both sides.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
lance, i was referring to the slot cut in the extension for a truss rod wrench. "how much meat is left on top of it" is just a backwards way of saying how deep is the slot.

thank you so much for clearing those things up for me. huge help.
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
My neck block, as mentioned above, is integral to the way I build. To me the neck block is the first thing I make for any guitar, it is in a very real sense the heart of the guitar, all of the other components attach to it, the neck, top, sides and back all are fixed to the neck block. Structurally it also has a major influence on the long term integrity of the guitar. There are a couple of threads on the forum that shows the detail of my system, look back at this one for a quick guide.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=15954&hilit=

Colin
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
hblair wrote:
michael, thanks for your reply. im trying really hard to hear what you are saying. i would not so quickly dismiss something that someone of your experience has advised, but i feel like i dont have enough information to completely use the mayes plans and there has just been so much negative said about the UTG (its basically worthless) on the antes plans.

i was thinking about just getting rid of the UTG and using a spanish heel of sorts under the fretboard extension. i was also thinking of throwing the mortise and tenon out in favor of the butt joint. if you feel like this is a poor choice, i will definitely bow to that. 1) because you know way better than me 2) because i was born in odessa, TX (not really a reason, just wanted to throw that out there).


The UTG is far from worthless. There are better way to adress what it does but I can tell you that it or an Aframe bracing or some means of supporting the top beyound the edge of the FB extension is important as the guitar ages. This gets back to my point about mixing designs prior to understanding each components funcion with in that design. but not to harp on that. Many here have given good suggestions to follow.
Author:  Guest [ Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: help me pick neck joint/neck block type... please
hblair wrote:
Because i was born in odessa, TX (not really a reason, just wanted to throw that out there).


Heath, I just read that you are from Odessa, TX. You ever heard of a feller named Bart Trotter that lives there. He's like a six time National Champion Fiddle player. Anyway, I had a cassette tape he made like twenty years ago and wore it out playing it so much. I've wanted to try to get another one. Anyway, just wondering if you knew him.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/