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"Easy French Polishes"?
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Author:  sdsollod [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  "Easy French Polishes"?
Has anybody used the Zinsser Bulls Eye, the Liberon, or the Liberon Easy French polish? …or one of the other “easy to apply”, “fast drying”, “one solution” French polishes? How do they work? Any recommendations? …any comments?
Steve
Author:  Ricardo [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
My understanding is that premade shellac's cannot - should not be used for French polish because of additives they may have. Use flakes only for French polishing.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
The Zinsser Bulls Eye SealCoat product is a 2# cut, wax-free shellac formula with a relatively long shelf life. I and others have used this quite successfully in French Polishing instruments.

I don't have any experiance with the others.
Author:  Dave Rector [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
I'm pretty sure Colin uses the Liberon product for his French polishes, which are beautiful IMHO.
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Yep, I use the Liberon Special Pale French Polish, and I think Michael uses the Zinser. The Liberon is a dewaxed French polish, that produces a superb hard finish, just treat it as a two pound cut. I did 20 guitars or so with flakes and the last 10 with the Liberon, I know which the next one will polished with!

Colin
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
I use Bulls Eye SEAL COAT and recommend it if you like a slight amber tint added for a vintage look. That said It does not make anything easier just more convenient. ;) Besides melting shellac is not hard as long as you have a good scale, flakes and alcohol.

the adage about canned shellac not being acceptable for french polishing comes from the fact that 99% of the product out there are not wax free or have other agents in them that are unexceptible to French polishing. Liberon and Zinzers Seal Coat are the only two exceptions to that rule that I am aware of.
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
And why can't we just call it what it is, SHEL LAC, not French Polish. French Polish is the technique for appling the shellac, not the finish itself. [headinwall] [headinwall]

OK, now that Howard has left my body, I can relax a bit :D

I plan on shellacing my current guitar by French Polish technique and I plan on using the Zinsser Bulls Eye SealCoat for the finish as it's already mixed for me. Nothing else I feel is going to be overly easy for my first time trying the French Polish technique, but I'm up for it.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Rod buddy having a bad day and got your panties in a ruffle............ :D :lol:

My one stint with "the technique" of French polishing was with both flakes (and I don't mean some of you guys.....myself included of course.... :D ) and Zinser Seal Coat (dewaxed). I found the Seal Coat easier to use and it produced better results for me. I cut the Seal Coat with Ever Clear to a 1 pound mix.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Steve buddy you also might want to check Robbie O'Brien's very fine Guitar finishing DVD - this is how I learned to FP in combination with help from my friend JJ.
Author:  Dave Livermore [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
I was VERY happy with the results of my first FP.
My kids and I watched Robbie O'Brian's video quite a few times. Each time we watched it, they fell asleep and I put some time in the shop. It was a great arrangement.

All joking aside, the information in the video led to a finely finished classical!
PLUS the guitar was done in just a few days!

I did mix flakes with grain alcohol and didn't think it was tough to do.

d
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Colin S wrote:
Yep, I use the Liberon Special Pale French Polish, and I think Michael uses the Zinser. The Liberon is a dewaxed French polish, that produces a superb hard finish, just treat it as a two pound cut. I did 20 guitars or so with flakes and the last 10 with the Liberon, I know which the next one will polished with!

Colin


Colin, can you elaborate a bit on why you prefer the Liberon product? Is it just the convenience of it being premixed, or - ? Is it straight shellac, or do they add any other resins or anything? You describe it as a "superb hard finish"; have you found it to be harder than other shellacs, and, if so, to what would that be attributable? Is it made with poison added (i.e. "denatured" alcohol)? Do they have some kind of proprietary process or additive, like the Zinsser, that gives it a long shelf life?

Thanks!
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
I believe it was agreed upon by the FP Gurus (Colin, Michael and Robbie) that the Liberon and Zinnser products were similar. So there became a product native to both continents that would be a suitable replacement for flakes.

I have used the Zinnser dewaxed Seal Coat on 4 guitars so far and am pleased with the results after 3 years. I have read the Milburn Turorial and have watched Robbie's fine DVD and have had Michael troubleshoot my early efforts until I became sucessful with the process.

And after 4 guitars, I feel that I'm qualified to express some opinions which I have developed and evolved over the 4 guitars. And those opinions are as follows:

...There's nothing "easy" about FP or any other finishing technique. Becoming successful requires a commitment to work hard and be uncompromising toward achieving a perfect result. If you want easy, send your guitar out to a professional finisher.
...The Milburn Tutorial is far more complicated than it needs to be. I'm sure there are a lot of folks who have been scared off from even trying after reading. It is, however a good starting point in developing a mindset for the process and understanding the theory and method of applying shellac.
...Robbie's DVD shows how you can FP a guitar in one day. I haven't achieved that level but there are a lot of successful finishers who have been taught by the Brune folks (Robbie included) who can do this. I'm not sure I will ever even try to FP a guitar in one day.
...Having studied both approaches, I seem to have developed my own style...I suspect others have done likewise. It is far more related to muscle memory and technique than I could have realized...but it's a lot of fun and satisfying ...and safe when one gets the hang of it.
...Becoming good at French Polishing requires the proper attitude, attention to detail and patience in order to be successful. It is far more dependent upon developing a feel and exercising judgement in preparing the materials and applying the shellac than it is on whether we choose flakes or canned shellac; whether we select Denatured Alcohol or Everclear. It requires more practice, and learning from mistakes along the way will only speed up the process. All mistakes CAN be corrected and that part of the process reinforces good technique.
...FP is not for everyone...I've seen some abominable results that should be sanded down to bare wood and sent to a professional finisher. And I attribute the poor results to the person just not having the right personality, tolerance, discipline and patience to pull it off. So, examine your conscience if you are considering this...you may be able to save yourself a lot of frustration. One good sign you may not be the right person for FP is if you're more interested in speeding up the process than slowly developing your skills. Take your time and enjoy the journey.

I happen to love the look and effect that a finely applied FP shellac has on wood. It is more delicate for sure, but with proper care, it will last forever and move easily as the wood responds to our musical touch. Others prefer the more protective and highly glossy look of Nitro or whatever Poly-razzmatazz finish is popular at the time. Nothing wrong with either approach when done with care and attention to every little detail.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
For the third time, I'm using the Lee Valley pre-mixed shellac for FP. I haven't had any problems that I can tell of, and I like the results. I do stop short of any kind of high gloss, preferring a soft glow.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Shellac can be sprayed too, you know. I've done exactly one instrument (F5 mandolin) this way so my credentials are not too impressive, but I didn't think it was particularly difficult compared to lacquer. I used blonde shellac flakes dissolved in alcohol, sprayed with my regular nitro set up (gravity feed touch up gun); rubbed it out and buffed like normal. Not a French polish of course, but if you want easy…
Author:  sdsollod [ Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Thanks for all of your replies. This is what makes the OLF so great...
Steve
Author:  Sam Price [ Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Colin S wrote:
Yep, I use the Liberon Special Pale French Polish, and I think Michael uses the Zinser. The Liberon is a dewaxed French polish, that produces a superb hard finish, just treat it as a two pound cut. I did 20 guitars or so with flakes and the last 10 with the Liberon, I know which the next one will polished with!

Colin


I bought the Liberon Special Pale according to Colin's recommendations, and I will not use anything else. I also agree that this product, once applied, withstands the abuses of a home full of energetic children!!
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Arnt is right. There are many ways to apply shellac, including spraying. French Polish is a technique for applying shellac. This word had become synonymous with the actual finish. Spraying shellac in a thicker pound cut is a quick way to apply shellac and get a quick build. Then you can wait the appropriate cure time and rub it out to a satin or even a high gloss or even French polish it. It doesn't get much easier than that! This type finish even rivals lacquer in sheen.
Years ago I did a bunch of sample boards for my students with shellac. Some of them I sprayed, others I brushed on the shellac and others I padded on the shellac. Then I rubbed some out to satin, others to high gloss and others I French polished (muñeca) to a gloss. All finishes were very appealing and you couldn't tell how the shellac was applied on any of them when finished. If you are a purist then use the traditional French polish method, if not, make it easy on yourself and use whatever method works. On a guitar I use a combination of methods. I use the traditional method of French polish on large areas like top, back/sides and neck and in areas like where the sides meet the neck or the top meets the fretboard I prefer to apply heavy coats of shellac by one of the methods mentioned above and then level and rub out to whatever sheen I am looking for.
Author:  Philip Perdue [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Is there an advantage tothe french polish. I have read how the shellac is adhered to the wood. Does the french polish make a stronger or more durable finish then other methods of applying shellac? When I read Robbie's post it was my impression is that it wouldn't matter what the application.

Philip
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
It's my belief that for the hardest most durable shellac finish, then traditional French polish is the best choice. The act of applying the pressure when bodying, and more particularly when stiffing, spiriting off and glazing, is what incorporates the shellac into a single thin hard layer. Done properly a good gloss finish can be achieved without any need for rubbing out or buffing. Those that have seen my FP finishes should be convinced that a good final finish is possible without the use of any abrasives once the finish process is started.

I've used the Liberon now on my last 10 guitars as I have found it to be a consistent, convenient product which has given me the results that I want. Not all shellac flakes, or alchohols are born equal! That said I'd be happy to go back to flakes if the Liberon was not available and I know that I could still get a good finish, (I did my first 20 or so with flakes). But, when someone is making me such a good and consistent product, that gives me the result I want, I'll stick with it, If it ain't broke....

Colin
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Colin S wrote:
It's my belief that for the hardest most durable shellac finish, then traditional French polish is the best choice. The act of applying the pressure when bodying, and more particularly when stiffing, spiriting off and glazing, is what incorporates the shellac into a single thin hard layer. Done properly a good gloss finish can be achieved without any need for rubbing out or buffing. Those that have seen my FP finishes should be convinced that a good final finish is possible without the use of any abrasives once the finish process is started.


Just so I even up things a bit between Colin and myself. " I find I spend a lot of my OLF time agreeing wholeheartedly with Colin theses days" ;)
Author:  JasonM [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Does anyone out there use a buffing wheel on FP after it's complete and fully hardened? I have hand buffed with Novus, as recommended in the Ron Fernandez DVD. Just wondering if a wheel would burn through too easily.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
yes, a wheel can be used but novus or Macguire's will work just as well without the risk of burning through, unless you got a bionic arm.
Author:  JasonM [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Thanks,

So just a clean finishing wheel free of any componds, to buff out the hand applied Novus would be a good solution then?
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
I use either or but not both.
Author:  Mark Tripp [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Easy French Polishes"?
Arnt wrote:
Shellac can be sprayed too, you know. I've done exactly one instrument (F5 mandolin) this way so my credentials are not too impressive, but I didn't think it was particularly difficult compared to lacquer. I used blonde shellac flakes dissolved in alcohol, sprayed with my regular nitro set up (gravity feed touch up gun); rubbed it out and buffed like normal. Not a French polish of course, but if you want easy…



I remember the pictures of that F5 Arnt. One of the nicest looking finishes I've seen!

-Mark
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