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Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
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Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
I just voiced my first top after making the jump to HHG. Maybe it's my imagination but it seems to ring clearer than anything I did with LMI white. Sure sounds good. Is this something you HHG users have experienced after you made the switch?
Terry

Image
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Congratulations, Terry... the braces look nice and clean...as usual. I never used anything but HHG so I have no basis of comparison...but theoretically, crystalline glue SHOULD ring better than a glue made of vinyl chains. But I doubt I could tell the difference. Another advantage is that HHG has no creep whereas the wood glues can and do creep over time.

So, how did you solve the less open time? Not that difficult to get used to, eh?
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Thanks JJ. What I did was lay out a heating blanket on the bench at low heat which was around 130 degrees and laid the braces on it while I was getting ready. (Lost an Ebay auction for a food warmer) Hit the top with a hair dryer and tried to get the go bars on fast. I glued the X one limb at a time. I love the stuff, its a lot of fun to work with. Thanks to you too as being one of the ones that pushed me into the HHG culture.
Terry
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Congrats Terry!!! [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]

I don't know if it indeed sounds clearer but I thought that my tops sounded clear after I made the switch and lets face it - if we thinks it's true it has to be..... :D
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Logically it does seem as though a glue like HHG that doesn't creep should have lower losses than PVA or aliphatic glues. However, given the tiny amount of glue in the finished joint the difference could be small even if the glues themselves are very different.

The problem is that it's pretty difficult to think of a good experiment to check it out. If you glue up two pieces of wood how can you be sure that the difference you measure is not in the wood rather than in the glue line? Even wood from the same piece varies from place to place, after all. Besides, the damping of wood is generally high enough to tend to mask small differences that could be there in the glue line. If you use something like glass, that has a low damping, to get around that, you get into the issue of differences in the way the glue bonds to the substrate. I _do_ think that would be the way to go, and hope some time to get the time to do the experiment, but I would not be heartbroken if somebody else did it first, so long as they _published_.
Author:  Dave White [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Terence,

I was sceptical at first when I made the switch but I definitely heard a difference (for the better) from the first one done with hhg. Could be those "psychoacoustics" but as Hesh said . . .
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Hearing is a subjective phenomenon. If you think you hear it, then you do.

We really are wasting a lot of energy going for objective improvement in guitars. The better way would be to just aim right at the phenomenal experience, instead of the physical intermediary. In other words, concentrate on hype rather than guitars; you get more results.

BTW, hot hide glue will also make you run faster, jump higher, clear your sinuses, and get all your dainty washables whiter than white.
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
There you see - now we can all be nuts together........ :D

Besides now you can do what Martin has done when they use HHG on a D-18 - triple the price and call it "original." :o :)
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Howard Klepper wrote:
The better way would be to just aim right at the phenomenal experience, instead of the physical intermediary. In other words, concentrate on hype rather than guitars; you get more results.


I thought it was already happening…
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
The most important thing, Terry is that now you will be given the secret HHG handshake and you'll be accused of being an elitist. This is surely bound to even further piss off the skeptics! :D

I love this place!
Author:  Terry Stowell [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
I have been using HHG for most structural operations for years, but on the 2 current gtrs, I'm using fish glue. What a marked improvement in working time (like glueing tops or back to sides). Downside is 12 hr clamp time. No biggie if it's no biggie, right?
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Howard Klepper wrote:
Hearing is a subjective phenomenon. If you think you hear it, then you do.


I'm with Howard on this one. I also switched to HHG on my second and I swore I could hear a difference. But being a beginner, I really didn't know any better. So now I think it is all in your head.

I recently had the good fortune of experimenting this psychoacoustics with Edward Dick. He had just completed 3 Banjolas made from different woods. He recorded the exact same song on each model. When I arrived, he had them all sitting out for me to examine. I was not allowed to play the instrument first, just look at them. He then played all three tracks and asked if I could guess which sound went with each banjola. I could hear absolutely no difference between all 3 tracks. I then picked up each and played the same tune on each. Once I played each one, I could immediately tell the difference between each wood difference. He then played all 3 tracks back for me, and I could immediately tell the difference between each one. After this test, I no longer believe it when someone says they can hear a slight difference in sound. The memory of sound is so short term, that I really think it is impossible. Also, once you are predisposed to a sound, that will be your comparison.

So from now on, when some one says they just played the best sounding guitar in world, I don't believe it will necessarily be the best sounding guitar to my ear because I may have been predisposed to different sounds. However, I do believe there are good sounds and bad sounds, and people can generally tell the difference. ;)
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Tracy...you're a man after my own heart! I've done the blindfold test too many times with people who are supposed to know...and they more often are embarrassed by their choices.
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Could also be the glueing process you have adopted.
Heating the top with a har drier will have dried it from its ambient moisture content.
You then glue on the braces and during the clamp up the top regains moisture and ends up slightly prestressed.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
LuthierSupplier wrote:

After this test, I no longer believe it when someone says they can hear a slight difference in sound. The memory of sound is so short term, that I really think it is impossible. Also, once you are predisposed to a sound, that will be your comparison.



It's much easier for all of us to hear things side by side but there are some people who clearly have outstanding sound memory and some who just plain have good ears and some who can barely tell the difference between a banjo and an accordian. And ears can be improved by "exercise". People who loose their sight seem to gain better ears.
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
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Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
ToddStock wrote:
I have one container of 192g that has a good bass rumble and this cool little dual-tone right above mid-C, so I'm thinking of using that glue on acoustic basses and maybe baritones.


I agree. I'm using it exclusively on all my tops and backs now, and tap them with a sledghehammer. It's the only way to hear the upper partials, and check the integrity of the joints.
Author:  Jody [ Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
no doubt and if its a bluegrass " axe " a nine pound hammer is a must !
Author:  Frei [ Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Ok, someone who wants to defend HHG can glue it to some home depo stir sticks, brush it on, and then use some ARG on 3 other sticks. Then you can take them to the OLF meeting, and do some tap-tone tests on the pro-HHG people,and the pro-ARG people. See if all these here gitar folks can tell the difference. Once and for all!!!

Of course, you will really piss off the ARG people if HHG wins, there might be a HHG OLF and an ARG Olf out of this. [clap]
[uncle]
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Howard Klepper wrote:
"BTW, hot hide glue will also make you run faster, jump higher, clear your sinuses, and get all your dainty washables whiter than white."

OTOH, it is theoretically possible for a luthier to get 'mad cow' disease from HHG. This begs the question of how you would know it if a luthier got 'mad cow'......
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
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Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Well I tapped my tops again today and they sound just like all my other tops. Got caught up in the moment I guess. Sorry I started all this insanity. Hide glue is still kind of fun though eh?
Terry
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Terence Kennedy wrote:
Well I tapped my tops again today and they sound just like all my other tops. Got caught up in the moment I guess. Sorry I started all this insanity. Hide glue is still kind of fun though eh?
Terry


Fear not...and take courage, Terry. This all comes with the territory when folks find out that you know the secret handshake and they don't. We all learn to take the slings and arrows from the Poly-vinyl-populists and move on.

It's all in good fun! :D :D
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Just remember though that in rare cases when using HHG a joint has remained hard for more than 4 hours - if this happens to you consult a doctor at once.........
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tap Tone with Hot Hide Glue
Howard Klepper wrote:
BTW, hot hide glue will also make you run faster, jump higher, clear your sinuses, and get all your dainty washables whiter than white.

Howard, The HHG I've been using plugs my sinuses. Am I mixing it too thick?
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