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Keeping Records Of Your Builds
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16149		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Keeping Records Of Your Builds
Many builders advocate keeping detailed records of your builds and the benefits of doing so.

All along I have been keeping little slips of paper, hand written notes, and many, many construction photos. In fact at last count I have over 4,000 construction pictures......

In addition I have been keeping other information such as deflection data, top thicknesses, and a record of where I source my materials and any impressions that I have of the materials, vendors, and more.

Tonight I decided to start to put it all together into a workbook (Excel). Even though I have just started some things are becoming clear to me.

J asked about guitar weight and as some of you know I have been trying to build lighter with each guitar and I believe, psychoacoustics or not, that my guitars have been sounding better partly by cutting down on the Ben and Jerry's..... and no I don't mean the Ben and Jerry's that I love....... :D

I thought that I would post my data so far as this is an on-going process and I have many more little pieces of paper to round up and record.

I would be interested in how others keep records, what works for you, what kinds of data that you record, etc.

Thanks!
Author:  bob_connor [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
I use an Excel spreadsheet as well Hesh.

Much the same info as you have.

Top, back and side thicknesses, bridge weights, whether I thought I had taken the bracing dimensions down a little further than normal when voicing the top to get the sustain I want, bridge plate material and general impressions of sound when first strung up and then after 3,6 and 12 months, any departures from standard bracing patterns.

Plus any other impressions that spring to mind as construction is occuring.

Bob
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
Cool idea to use excel for record keeping.

Hesh, interesting to note the differences in weight on your guitars. Sure looks like the differnt woods can be certainly a factor although I know you've been working at getting the weight down alot. Are you going to add what brand ans style of tuners and truss rod's you've got in there too. All those things will certainly add or subtract to/from the total weight.

I'll have to start a spreadsheet as well. My papers in the shop are all over the place, and messy gaah


dang I love these new smilies
Author:  Chansen [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
That is a good idea Hesh. I hope to say I am that diligent with jotting things down. Even with just a little info there you can certainly see an overall trend in the weights. Very cool! Thanks for the tip.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
Good thread, Hesh. I've also been a compulsive note taker and record keeper from the beginning. My approach has evolved from making daily entries into a journal that was as much prosaic as it was a record of the materials, processes and metrics. The intention of the record keeping for my 1st three was in keeping with the purpose of the Legacy Guitar Project. Once those guitars and 50 page journals were completed, I transferred the data to spreadsheets similar to what you are doing.

Since that time, rather than write a novel on each guitar, I do something different. For each model that I build, I trace the full scale body profile onto a large piece of posterboard. I carefully draw in the bracing location for both top and back. I also do a neck drawing. These posters hang on the wall during the construction and are handy for note taking. During the process of building, I write down notes directly on the drawing as well as final bracing dimensions, component and subassembly weights along with pertinent observations which are sometimes on sticky notes. After a while, it seems to come alive, all in one location, with the information that I deem to be critical. It's also easier then to transfer the pertinent values to the spreadsheet rather than collecting scraps of paper that can easily get misplaced.

So far, I have built 2 guitars for each model. Values and dimensions are recorded in different colors so that comparisons of differences can be easily discerned. At my rate of building, I don't expect to run out of colors during my lifetime.

The excel records can be really usefully organized, manipulated, graphed and can eventually provide enough data to analyze if one is so inclined. So far for me it's purely an exercise in data recording but may have such use in the future.
Author:  Rick Hubka [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
Hi Hesh

Starting at your build #12 your guitar weight dropped for all your latest build. Could you please explain what is is you did for this to happen?

Since I'm on build #1, I had better get out the spread sheet and start up this process. Good idea's... Heck, I can't remember what I had for dinner yesterday :roll:
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
Rod that is a great idea to record the tuners and truss rods too. To date, with two exceptions, I have been a one-trick-pony using either the LMI rod on most and more recently the new style Allied rod - both weigh 119 grams. But tuners do vary in weight and in the case of some tuners they can be 2 ounces heavier.

Bob another good idea to record side thicknesses, top etc. I do record top data but have not put it together yet and since I am still prototyping I have some fear that someone will use something that I do, that may not work over time, and also not get good results. This goes for my deflection data too.

Rod the two OMs recently finished are identical except for one has the heavier 510 tuners but lighter Koa for the back and sides. But still they weigh very much the same considering.

Rick guitar 12 is a bit of an out liar in that it is French polished. The type of finish, and pore fill and if you leave the pore filler on the surface of the guitar or not can impact weight. On #12 I shot the lock off and went for the minimal finish that I could get even not completely filling the BRW pores. And this helped keep the weight down and it is also an OO sized guitar too.

IMHO a top is not an area that you can save much weight in as much as there is a certain thickness and a certain level of bracing that must be there so the thing does not fold in half...... But necks are an area where huge weight savings can be achieved IMHO. Necks that use lams of heavier woods such as Maple will be heavier where Mahogany lams or even one piece Mahogany necks, a favorite here, depending on the Mahogany, can be very light. I also hate a guitar that when you take your hands off it dives at the head stock downward.

Also some bling will add weight too and I tend to be a blingless builder.

Other things that I have done since and including #12 are thinner sides and backs using more in the neighborhood of 75-80/90 now respectively. I am also selective of what I make my tail blocks out of since again Mahogany can widely vary in weight.

Although the weight savings in bracing styles is pretty minimal once I went to taller, thin, triangles ala Somogyi my braces are less massive as well.

On my list is to look at fret boards and weigh them and also consider some alternate fret boards too. I also want to further reduce the physical dimensions of my head stocks.

Any way the weight is coming off slowly but surely and I like the results. No body has folded in half yet and again the player experience when playing a light guitar that vibrates the player too is something that I prefer.
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
If you want to have something of actual use later, record all the finest details. Record brace size, angles, locations, bridge plate weight, bridge weight, soundhole size, record your thoughts on how the woods seemed to ring or didn't, record the tuners, nut size, bridge pins, any change from the previous, etc.... everything you can think of. And always take a photo, head-on, and at a low angle, of your braced top, and file tis wit the spec sheet. Then, finally, record your first impression, and be honest, of the first strum and the first notes you play on it.

Make up a list, print a bunch of them, affix to a clipboard, and keep it handy in the shop. Scribble on it as you go, and feel free to add any quirks that arise in the comments box at the bottom.

Then, through the years and decades, go back ad re-read all these notes. THAT is an education, and most importantly, one in your words, that directly relates to you.

You'll thank me, ten years from now.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
Grumpy beat me to most of my comments. I keep type and deflection of brace material, deflection of top cross grain and long grain, top and back tuning notes, Neck specs, fretboard specs, bridge specs, pin type, nut ans saddle type, and Rod said tuner spec. One of the things that I end up using from my notes and use relatively quickly is notes on construction issues and resolutions to those issues.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
Mario my friend I will thank you now - all very good advice!!!! [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]

Several guitars ago an OM that I built sounded absolutely terrible when I strung it up for the firs time. I was bummed beyond words........

It went on the bench and I stated checking bridge placement, scale length, intonation, if the nut came loose, etc. and everything was where I wanted it to be. Later that evening I played it more and it started to sound better and I have no clue why. Within an hour of playing it started to sound fine and today it sounds fine too.

I still have no clue why this guitar sounded so very bad initially, to the point that it sounded very out of tune....., when first strung up. Anyone else experience this?
Author:  Anthony Z [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
Many good ideas on what info should be retained! I admire you for your diligence and discipline. I guess I am in a slightly different camp because I build Archtops and there are far fewer braces, no fixed bridge, bridge plates etc.

I mostly keep pictorials of techniques to do trickly aspects of a build supplemented by bullet point notes starting with a list of goals soundwise that I hope to achieve by arching plates in a certain fashion. I find that building so few that steps/process to make a certain tailpiece design or bridge aren't locked into long-term memory so having these notes saves a ton of time and head scratching when I need to do it again. They also can be converted into articles or tutorials which is fun to share with friends later.
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Keeping Records Of Your Builds
I am in a slightly different camp because I build Archtops and there are far fewer braces, no fixed bridge, bridge plates etc.

Give yourself more credit, because while you don't realize it, there are more variables in a carved instrument than any 'ol flatop! The archings and graduations can influence everything in such large ways that record keeping is even more important with archtops(mandolins, violins, guitars, etc...). I try to record arch height, recurve beginnings and end, all that stuff. Even the interior's texture, the linings, everything...
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