Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello all- I'm hoping to get some input from you seasoned repair guys. I've been doing a good bit of repairs/restorations/setups lately and am starting to feel like I'm not charging enough money. About a year ago I was thrilled just being given the opportunity to work on any instrument and was almost giving my service away. As my skills, portfolio and references have expanded, I have started to think about how much I should be charging. I realize I am not going to get rich doing this, but as much work as I have been getting, there is the potential to earn a little more on the side(doing something that I love). So, here are some questions for Collins and you others in this field:
1- What do you charge for basic repairs like nuts, saddles, refrets, etc? Do you have a per-fret rate for refretting?
2- Do you try to estimate how much time a repair will take you and calculate a desired hourly rate and quote off of that?
3- Do you charge more or less based on the value of the instrument?(for instance, do you charge more to refret a $2000 Taylor than you would a $400 Epiphone?
4- Do you have insurance in the event that you screw something up royally or there is a fire or something bad happens?(A prospective client asked me this)

I have been charging $20 for nuts, $10 for saddles, $2 or $3 per-fret for refretting, and often times just pulling a qoute out of my rear-end and then honoring my quote while I silently kick myself for assorted other repairs(re-glue bridge, install new tuners, fix cracks/scratches/loose brace/ reglue binding etc...)

Any input would be greatly appreciated. I read most posts almost daily and am constantly humbled and inspired by what I find here. Thanks a million in advance!!!!!

Pricing varies quite a bit in this trade, but I think most shops undercharge for their services. I base my prices on $80/hr, which is definitely less than what I think it should be, but about what most of the market seems willing to afford.

"1- What do you charge for basic repairs like nuts, saddles, refrets, etc? Do you have a per-fret rate for refretting?"

I'll attach a price list, though it needs updating and revision in a few areas.
http://www.collinsluthiery.com/Price_List_2007.pdf

"2- Do you try to estimate how much time a repair will take you and calculate a desired hourly rate and quote off of that?"

Yes and no. Many common jobs I've opted for a list price, but remain flexible on a case-by-case basis. I don't list different prices for a new Martin bridge vs. a J-200 on my list, but obviously the estimates will be written up differently when they come in. And while I used to feel guilty about charging more for some things (based on average prices elsewhere) than it took me in labor hours, it doesn't take long to find others that I'm undercharging for. So it's mostly based around actual time, but there's give and take in pricing different jobs to fit the market.

"3- Do you charge more or less based on the value of the instrument?(for instance, do you charge more to refret a $2000 Taylor than you would a $400 Epiphone?"

Above or below a certain point, yes. If a guitar is so cheap that it is not worth fixing, I can only go so low on pity repairs unless I start getting government subsidies. I also don't like to do quick fixes on cheapos because I don't want the owner going around showing work I'm not proud of saying "yeah, Dave fixed this for me, isn't it great". I try to help out students and working musicians if they need it, but you have to be careful with that. If you need new brakes on your 83 Chevette most people wouldn't exactly expect the auto shop to do it for half price, and you shouldn't think any less of your own services.

For more valuable vintage instruments, yes, the price often has to be adjusted. Every instrument that comes in to a shop comes with some degree of risk. No matter how careful you are, things may not always go right, unexpected difficulties can come in to play, and the consequences can be higher with the value of the instrument. You are taking on more liability with some vintage or valuable instruments, and that needs to be figured in to pricing. Most serious collectors will be happy to pay some increase in fees, knowing that you will be able to take all the time and care you need and not feel rushed in working on it. Quoting too low a price for a more valuable instrument can be a sign to some owners that you don't take their instrument seriously enough. I can't over stress however, the importance of knowing when something is outside your range of expertise. Better to be wise than ambitious when deciding whether to take in or refer out something of significant value.

"4- Do you have insurance in the event that you screw something up royally or there is a fire or something bad happens?(A prospective client asked me this)"

If you're going to be working on customer instruments you do need to have insurance on your shop. While most plans won't cover damage you cause in repairs or labor (that's on your shoulders), things like theft, fire, flood, etc., you need to be prepared for.


Check around with plumbers, electricians, auto shops, etc., in your area. If you're charging less than them and you consider your work to be fully professional then you're way undercutting yourself. I charge as twice as much to change strings as you do to make a saddle, so I would definitely say you're being a little timid with your pricing.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Thank you so much for your input! You have given me a lot to think about, and I am sure you have helped some others on this forum with your thoughtful post. I will chew on what I've just read for a while and will definately make some changes to the way I am operating. Cheers from New Orleans- Doug

David,
I see that one thing you have in your list is "heat treating neck"

Can you explain what you do in this treating please?

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Reguards,

Ken H

Actually, that's something I really don't do much of anymore and have meant to pull it from the list - it's one way of attempting to correct a severe bow or twist in a neck - probably what is more often referred to as "heat press" - but there are other methods I've come to prefer for most cases. I guess "heat treating" makes it sound like I'm wolmanizing the wood or something. Guess that was a poor choice of description....

There are so many things that could be put on a price list, that after listing the most common repairs the list could carry on forever. Many of the things on there were isolated, random examples of repairs, basically pulled out of a hat and listed more to demonstrate the range of services offered. If I wanted to make a more complete list I could probably fill several pages with autoharp and dulcimer repairs, but I try not to attract too much of that market.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Thanks for the explanation. I had actually used heat to un-bow a neck about 20 years ago. WOrked like a champ, but melted the plastic fingerboard dots.... I would have thought the dots were pearl, but this time they were plastic and melted right out of the neck.

I have been winging it as far as pricing on my repair work. I dont do that much of it and I am extremely picky about what I take in for repairs. It is handy to see what others in the trade are charging and I appreciate your willingness to share. Looks like my pricing isnt too far off from others.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Hi,
Its tough trying to charge a proper fee for what you do, I always used to undercharge but i found its mostly a matter of getting the right mindset, then applying that to the quote.
Have a fully worked out price-list that you can show the customer. The printed list laminated in a folder with booking-in forms all neat and tidy and very pro-looking really helps - it makes it less personal and therefore easier to stick to your guns.
I also refer to my workshop as 'we' i.e "We charge £30 per hr, or £35+strings for a set up, so you might get more value by getting a set-up while its here" etc
Also lots of people find that if they dont charge enough they appear less pro. For instance, who would take their car for a service that cost less than a tank of fuel (that argument might not stand in a few year tho!)

there was a thread of different guys repair price lists last year - including Frank Fords! Have a search, its very interesting - and makes you realise how much more you could be earning...

higher profit, lower turnover as things get busier seems to be the best way to go

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www.theguitarrepairworkshop.com

David I appreciate your response as well ....I notice no pricing for a neck reset???? also do you live in a large city ? I see where pricing in a city area could be higher than a rural area .. at least I know it goes that way with construction .. and other labor oriented services . thanks Jody

Off to jury duty (mini vacation) I will try and add something
when I return. David as usual has nailed much of the
needed info. Well off to render some NYC justice
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

Does this involve baseball bats and kneecaps?

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

Jody, the neck resets are listed under instrument-specific categories - acoustic guitars, mandolin & archtop, banjo, and resonator. And I know prices vary from one region to another, but I haven't really found a consistent change from urban to rural. It seems in this trade you can find either end of the price range in about any locale.

Good luck with the system Evan - I love jury duty, as the $7 a day allows me to finally make some money.

Some people find $80/hr to sound high, but when you break down trying to run a business it doesn't add up to much. Between pick up and drop offs, phone, taxes, bills, tool maintenance and development, shop maintenance and improvements - I'm lucky if I can pack 20 billable hours in a week, though I am admittedly spending a good deal of time on improvements.

Then figure sandpaper, utilities, rent, parts inventory, glue, lightbulbs, tool updates, insurance - these hundreds of things all add up to a pretty fast, and I'm lucky to keep half of what actually comes in. So while $80/hr may mean $160,000/yr if you're getting a paycheck from an office, it comes closer to $40,000/year if you're running a small shop. Right now even, that would be an ambitious number, as with only 2 years in my current shop I'm still investing an awfully large percent in improvements, inventory, tooling, and plenty of other stuff.

So don't be afraid to charge a fair price. My auto shop, plumber, and electricians all charge about the same as what I'm doing. One distinction though is that there are over 100 places within 5 miles I could go each of those services, while a musician has less than five 5 places within 100 miles that offer what I do. Even then I'm not raising my rates to any exclusive specialist fee, but keeping that in mind should help keep you from being too soft on quotes.

It's also such a wide market that quoting the same for the same job to two different customers I can get opposite reactions. They will both say "Wow", but one because they can't believe how much I charge, and the other because they can't believe that's all I charge.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Back from day 1 of jury duty, in NYC its $40 a day so as you said David
I can finally make some real money
Again David summed it up best with this statement
"It's also such a wide market that quoting the same for the same job to two different customers I can get opposite reactions. They will both say "Wow", but one because they can't believe how much I charge, and the other because they can't believe that's all I charge."
As for neck resets I have been nursing a shoulder injury for a couple of years and found them to be a bit harsh
for me. I actually refer them to folks outside of NYC for faster and less pricey work as I know great people like
David and Neil Harrell when it comes up.
I generally bill myself at $80 an hour but most of my work is pretty fixed unless other issues come up
during a job. I will give my client a range if I am unsure and try and keep it there. At this point though
I will not under sell myself. When people say to me "if I bring you 5 guitars can I get a discount" My stock answer
is "Of course, just let me know which guitar you want me to pay less attention to when I work on it"
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

David, I appreciate your input here, and have printed off your price list to mull over for the next few. (Unfortunately, no jury duty time to think/read. $40 per day... Really, Evan? )
What I can tell right away is that my pricing has stayed at the 1990 levels, and none of my customers has complained to me that I'm not charging enough. So thank you!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

I'm filing that one away. Hope you don't mind if I borrow it.

Last time I got called for jury duty I think got about $12, but was only there for the morning. Of course since I was sent home without actually being selected for a jury, my parking wasn't covered so it had to come out of the $12....

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Well, the judicial system is safe. I was never selected. Easiest $80 I ever made (in 10-12 weeks for them to mail it).
I am thinking one can be a professional juror and do ok in this town. Well back to work
David I think you need to come to NYC as the jurors make more money. Since there is no
money in guitar fixin' my wife and I need to make this $80 last until the next time I am
called to serve. In 4 years!
Steve! Please say this to yourself every morning. "It is 2008, not 1990, my work is
incredible and my prices can reflect that." Repeat this until you raise your prices
to at least this millennium
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com