Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Thicknessing using plane or sander???

charleywood wrote:

Whilst only a small consideration for some, and not at all for others,
some may like the fast carbon neutrality (reaching point) of a hand tool such as a plane...
For while no doubt carbon dioxide is generated in the making of the tool...(and the replacement of every blade and part) it will reach its carbon neutral point pretty fast in the usage of a tool which requires no electricity, the only carbon dioxide generated is the heavy breathing from lugging a 8 1/2 Lb LN #7 Jointer across your wood surface...

Our generations (mine and previous) are not used to thinking about such things as carbon footprints - but you can be sure the upcoming generations will have to strongly consider these things....
Hand builders that use handtools> imagine not only being able to say that your guitar is handmade... and custom,, but also constructed in a carbon free way.... another good selling point!
My hope is to be able to build guitars with as few powertools as possible & eventually building with none.... and I also plan to plant (X amt) trees for every guitar sold - if we all do that imagine the atmosphere and the forests we can leave behind for future generations! bliss

Cheers
Charlie

Forgive me Charlie I mean no harm here, just as I know you did not either, but really!!! So tell me!!! Do I need to buy Carbon Offsets to account for my use of my power tools? idunno

And if so the explain to me please exactly how does the fact that I spend money for carbon offsets change anything other than where my hard earned money resides? duh

I respect all that put forth the effort to keep the planet clean and conserve resources and I try to do my part with in a certain amount of practical reason. However to get where those that are spouting the extreme global warming hysteria want to be would mean hundreds of millions of people would not have jobs and would resort to slash and burn to heat their dwellings and game poaching to feed their families. So which is the worst of the evils we face?

Please know I understand and respect you opinion. and I did not post this to get into a debate. Just pointing out There is other sides of this issue. not wanting a confrontation beehive

really I am not

Just wondering if it is equally ok to speak of the truly horrendous troubles humanity will face under Zero carbon emission, as it is to speak of the need eliminate carbon emissions. I am pretty sure your point of view carries more political weight at present. OH well just the way thing s are

Author:	SkyHigh [ Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Hi Guys! It seems like many of you are getting both planes and thickness sander, and as a newbie I would like to understand why. I can see small trimming planes being used but don't understand why you would need larger ones when you have the thickness sander to do the same. Perhaps it's my narrow understanding that planes are used for thicknessing and joining top/back only. So please help me understand. couple more questions: Is using plane to thickenss old technique that's fading away with new technology such as thickness sanders coming to play? Do most of you use thickness sander to thickness your top/back, plane, or both? I ask above questions for two reasons. 1. Subject of planes seems to be talked about regularly on the forum. 2. I live in apartment and using thickness sander will be difficult. This reality of mine will result in me to use handtool when ever possible. Thank you, David

Author:	Steve Walden [ Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Hi David! The traditional thicknessing method, before the advent of the sander was the plane. From the other threads dealing with planes on this forum you can learn tips on setup and sharpening. The sander is just another way to save time and it does a very consistent job across the width of the plates if it is set up correctly, such as being sure the drum is parallel to the feed rollers. It is your choice to use what you can afford. You may not be able to afford upset neighbors with loud machinery!!!!!! By the way, welcome to the forum!

Author:	CypressGroove [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Another consideration which didn't occur to me before I actually did it for the first time is that if you use a plane to thickness, you get curls of wood you can tidy with a dustpan and brush, if you use a drum sander or a thicknesser you're going to get dust - a LOT of dust (no matter how good your extraction system is...). In fact, that seems to be a general rule of thumb with all woodwork. Handtools = coarse shavings whilst powertools = fine dust. I have to say, thicknessing with my wooden plane and a cambered plane iron was one of the most therepeutic parts of the build so far. As my father used to say, it really makes you feel you've earned your tea... and it's a lot quicker than you might think, too...

Author:	Colin S [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
You see in reality the small drum sander that most small production people have the 10/20, 16/32 and even the 22/44 are really finishing sanders rather than thicknessers. I still like to thickness by plane, then just run through the sander to get the surface finish. You learn an awful lot about wood from planing it. Then of course there is always the Wagner. If you've got a nice big wide belt sander well, that's a different matter all together. Colin

Author:	Hesh [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
David I wanted to mention another option for you. Although using a plane works great, a thickness sander too - depending on where you are located I will bet that another OLFer would be happy to assist you using their thickness sander. It might be fun for you to meet another builder too.

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Author:	Hesh [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Oh and I forgot to mention that there is a tool called the Wagner power planer that you chuck in a drill press that does a decent job, when the press table is set-up level, too. And a drill press does not make a great deal of noise.

Author:	Laurent Brondel [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
With well tuned and sharpened planes one can remove a lot of material pretty fast and pretty accurately. A toothed plane is mandatory for figured woods, tearout can be catastrophic. A small foreplane can be handy when the plates come way too thick, as it sometimes happens. Like Colin wrote the small finishing sanders can't really remove a lot of material in one pass, maybe .010" maximum with 36 grit paper (I have the 10/20). It's much faster to remove 90% of the material with a plane, and then go to the sander with 80 grit to get consistent thickness and a nice even surface. The wagner is cool, it needs to be razor sharp. It's also harder to set up (you need a fairly large drill press anyway), and quite messy and dusty as well. A big commercial sander won't remove that much either in one pass, maybe .015"/.020" with coarser grits. It's good practice to learn how to sharpen, set-up and use planes. It's also silent and dust-free… You can put the shavings in the garden as mulch, or burn them in the woodstove.

Author:	Bruce Dickey [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
I tried a set of Walnut sides with a plane. Then purchased a General dual drum sander 5 by 25", 2 HP. I've never looked back. I do use my planes a bit though when I need something heavy to weight something down.

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
I have thicknesses with a combed or tooth blade on Spruce to near final thickness wil no tearout. A well sharpend blade is a must. Then finished off with a flat blade. But 90% of the tonewood I get these days for backs and sides is a .18" when I get it, so a drum sander makes easy work of them. It is also a great methods of cleaning up up blocks for necks, neck and tail blocks and many other tasks. But even with a drum sander The plane is invaluable in the shop. I do not own a power planer so all my necks and peghead surfaces are hand planed.

Author:	Tim L [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
How can you graduate a top using a drum sander? I put pearl rosettes in 2 tops over the weekend and they will go throught the Performax today to smooth the top side. The bracing side I plan to use a plane. Or was that, I plane to use a plan? Tim

Author:	Tim L [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
How can you graduate a top using a drum sander? I put pearl rosettes in 2 tops over the weekend and they will go throught the Performax today to smooth the top side. The bracing side I plan to use a plane. Or was that, I plane to use a plan? Tim

Author:	Laurent Brondel [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Even a well calibrated drum sander will be off by .001" or a few 1000's side to side, so it's good to take light passes for final thicknessing. A few passes with the same setting and 80 or 120 grit paper will remove one or two thous at each pass, depending on the wood. And running the plates from both directions (tail to head and head to tail) evens out discrepancies. Dust in a small shop (not mentioning an apartment…) is indeed a major concern. I built my first 7 guitars with planes and scrapers (and the wagner for the rough thicknessing before joining). While it's a good learning experience, it's painfully slow on figured, hard and/or resinous woods. And not without a good potential for accidents…

Author:	George Thomas [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Hi All: Another new old guy or old new guy here. For the first several guitars and ukes I used cabinet shop large belt sanders for thicknessing. While reasonably fast (and at a dollar a minute for one shop that was important) neither of the two shop sanders were very accurate. The feed belt on both was soft enough to allow the plate or side to be pressed in by the pressure rollers. My Grizzly 18" sander has a sandpaper feed belt and can be adjust to high accuracy. While here I want to thank all the experiences luthiers for taking the time to answer the many questions from folks like me. I am fortunate to have several very experienced luthiers in my area who I can ask questions of but I do not want to be taking too much of their time as they earn a living with their guitars. Fortunately this great forum, where I have been lurking for many months, covers lots of issues. FWIW I started making classical guitars and tenor ukes a a few years ago as a hobby. Now that I am retired I can spend several hours per day in my little shop and have the joy of new mistakes each day.

Author:	Hesh [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Tim L wrote: How can you graduate a top using a drum sander? Tim You can't unless the top has a grade point average of 1.2 or above......... Sorry - couldn't resist........ Laurent brings up a very good point. My Performax is about .002 lower on the inboard side. This may also be inherent to the cantilevered design and open end because it measures dead nuts equal when not in use. But I have found that simply by passing the wood through an additional time I often can remove a couple thousandths more. After about 3 passes nothing else comes off. But it's a great way to sneak up on the thickness that you want.

Author:	David LaPlante [ Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
After forty years I've gone back to working with planes for thicknessing tops. Two reasons really, one, having to do it at the Romanillos course made me realize how effective it is, and two, having recently acquired a stock of aged European spruce which requires lots of special handling. Also a plane cut gives me a far better sense of the wood than a sanded finish. I will probably drift back into more and more use of the sander eventually, but the planes have given me just one more weapon in the arsenal. As for Global warming........here is all I have to say on that subject... http://www.all-she-wrote.com/Once%20the ... 20Melt.htm

Author:	charliewood [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Michael Im sorry if I took that the wrong way - but somehow, sometimes, I just find the laughing emoticons are seemingly quite antagonistic, when one is a bit defensive ... as I suppose I was,,, I guess they could be misconstrued as easily as reading statements and not being able to hear the inflection of the individual speaking,,, Where Im currently living (where, while greats things abound at the grassroots level) there are also people who could give 2 craps less than anything to do with personal responsibility... in terms of co-existance with other living creatures and things... and our collective future,,, and I have found myself often trying to defend something that (in my mind anyhow) really needs no defence.. Your very correct about needing multiple viewpoints of our predicament ,,,consideration towards all who are affected in each way....and the need to assess the problems we now face collectively and co-operatively from as many angles as possible.... Some need to realize this much faster than others.. My apologies for coming off like a jerk if I did! Cheers Charlie

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Author:	charliewood [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Whilst only a small consideration for some, and not at all for others, some may like the fast carbon neutrality (reaching point) of a handtool such as a plane... For while no doubt carbon dioxide is generated in the making of the tool...(and the replacement of every blade and part) it will reach its carbon neutral point pretty fast in the usage of a tool which requires no electricity, the only carbon dioxide generated is the heavy breathing from lugging a 8 1/2 Lb LN #7 Jointer across your wood surface... Our generations (mine and previous) are not used to thinking about such things as carbon footprints - but you can be sure the upcoming generations will have to strongly consider these things.... Handbuilders that use handtools> imagine not only being able to say that your guitar is handmade... and custom,, but also constructed in a carbon free way.... another good selling point! My hope is to be able to build guitars with as few powertools as possible & eventually building with none.... and I also plan to plant (X amt) trees for every guitar sold - if we all do that imagine the atmosphere and the forests we can leave behind for future generations! Cheers Charlie

Author:	Arnt Rian [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
I only have a home made sander without a power feed, so I thickness close to final dimensions with a hand plane and finish up on the sander. If the wood is particularily difficult I have used the sander all the way. Spruce tops I only hand plane. I find this to be the most effective procedure for me.

Author:	Guest [ Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
Do you plane the tops to 0.110" or the thickness can slightly vary depending on tap tone that you get? Does the tap tone matter at this stage or you can shave the bracing after and then look for it?

Author:	charliewood [ Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
MichaelP wrote: charleywood wrote: Whilst only a small consideration for some, and not at all for others, some may like the fast carbon neutrality (reaching point) of a hand tool such as a plane... For while no doubt carbon dioxide is generated in the making of the tool...(and the replacement of every blade and part) it will reach its carbon neutral point pretty fast in the usage of a tool which requires no electricity, the only carbon dioxide generated is the heavy breathing from lugging a 8 1/2 Lb LN #7 Jointer across your wood surface... Our generations (mine and previous) are not used to thinking about such things as carbon footprints - but you can be sure the upcoming generations will have to strongly consider these things.... Hand builders that use handtools> imagine not only being able to say that your guitar is handmade... and custom,, but also constructed in a carbon free way.... another good selling point! My hope is to be able to build guitars with as few powertools as possible & eventually building with none.... and I also plan to plant (X amt) trees for every guitar sold - if we all do that imagine the atmosphere and the forests we can leave behind for future generations! Cheers Charlie Forgive me Charlie I mean no harm here, just as I know you did not either, but really!!! So tell me!!! Do I need to buy Carbon Offsets to account for my use of my power tools? And if so the explain to me please exactly how does the fact that I spend money for carbon offsets change anything other than where my hard earned money resides? I respect all that put forth the effort to keep the planet clean and conserve resources and I try to do my part with in a certain amount of practical reason. However to get where those that are spouting the extreme global warming hysteria want to be would mean hundreds of millions of people would not have jobs and would resort to slash and burn to heat their dwellings and game poaching to feed their families. So which is the worst of the evils we face? Please know I understand and respect you opinion. and I did not post this to get into a debate. Just pointing out There is other sides of this issue. not wanting a confrontation really I am not Just wondering if it is equally ok to speak of the truly horrendous troubles humanity will face under Zero carbon emission, as it is to speak of the need eliminate carbon emissions. I am pretty sure your point of view carries more political weight at present. OH well just the way thing s are First off I never said anything about carbon credits,,, or anything like that.. all I mentioned was taking personal responsibility for ones own footprint upon the planet.. If that doesnt matter to you - so be it... laugh it up - Just like the North Atlantic Cod and the Buffalo were never going to run out - and like the Pacific Salmon stocks now on the brink of desolation were once laughable topics... are now grave concerns... I realize that its easy for people to say "my tiny amount of contribution couldnt possibly affect the whole" but really its time for a radical departure from our wasteful first world mentality,,,, to more of a preservational intelligence. You can do whatever you want - personally I am moving towards renewable resouce power systems and I for one will try my damndest to put back more than I take in this life - My wife and I have even decided not to have children to try and do "our tiny" part for overpopulation, which in my opinion is the real culprit for the problems we are facing worldwide... these arent easy decisions to stick to - but thankfully younger generations are moving away from the mindset that there will always be enough... Im gonna get mine, and let the next guy do it... As for this statement "However to get where those that are spouting the extreme global warming hysteria want to be would mean hundreds of millions of people would not have jobs and would resort to slash and burn to heat their dwellings and game poaching to feed their families." You really arent up on the newer technologies that can currently be implimented in home construction (or renovation) for heat storage and conservation are you?... you should do some research... TV program "The Nature of Things" with David Suzuki is a really amazing place to learn about cutting edge technologies such as these.... As for game poaching, our current methods of food production such as mono cropping, genetic engineering (i.e frankencrops), factory farming, and slash and burn agriculture, are niether healthy or dependable in the long term... solutions exist, we need to find them!! Lastly IMO we need to start thinking community first approach to small/niche businesses in terms of employment strategy... rather than depending upon large multinational companies that could care less about "you and your family".. Im glad I live in an area where these ideas of personal responsibility and community self sufficiency are not only random "theories" but practices "in motion". Mabye one day you will live in such an area,,,, or mabye youll change your mind and help create one,,, Im not going to argue about this ... this is all I have to say about the subject. Cheers Charlie

Author:	Hesh [ Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
MichaelP wrote: Forgive me Charlie I mean no harm here, just as I know you did not either, but really!!! So tell me!!! Do I need to buy Carbon Offsets to account for my use of my power tools? Michael my friend the answer is no - just give some thought to constructing your future guitars so as to optimize them as boat paddles............

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Thicknessing using plane or sander???
I know the emoticon thing