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Wet Wood Dilemma
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16271		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:18 am ]
Post subject:  Wet Wood Dilemma
Hi folks,

Without mentioning the vendor by name (be assured that it's not one of our OLF sponsors!): I just received a couple of EIRW finger boards that had been back ordered for a couple months. The wood itself is very nicely quartersawn, has very nice color and is fairly straight grained (not sure it's AAA+ though?).

However, the boards felt damp to me, so I dug out my digital moisture content meter to measure them. They both read 32%; that's as high as the meter goes, so they are 32% moisture content (MC) or higher. Basically, by anyone's standards they are sopping wet and hence unusable until they have been dried.

They are nice and straight and flat though, and the ends are well sealed with a waxy substance of some kind and there's no sign of any splits. They were advertized as "AAA+ grade and air dried both at the mills in India as well as by us". Obviously, they are not as advertized! gaah

Here's the two fingerboard blanks:
Image

Here's the MC of the first one:
Image

Here's the MC of the second one:
Image

Here's the MC of fresh air (with the meter vertical) as a cal point:
Image

Here's the MC of a cutoff piece of neck blank to show what dry wood measures in my shop:
Image


Should I:

a) Send them back - it's not normal to accept wet wood when they are advertized as dried, right?

or

b) Sticker them in a dark corner until they come down to 9 to 12% MC (which is what dry wood measures around here normally) before I use them?

I'm inclined to go b) because the wood is so nice, but I don't want this vendor to "get away with it". Perhaps option c) should be to do b) AND complain to the vendor?

What would you do? :?:

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
I have bought a few mad rose bridge blanks which had sealed ends. They felt heavy so i trimmed one a bit, and wow it was very damp feeling.

The good news is that it dried up reasonably fast. I cleaned the wax first. A 90 grams sample was losing a few grams every day, at least in an initial phase. A few months later they were as dry as desert sand :)
Author:  David R White [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
Dave, whether you keep them or not depends on how nice you think they are and whether you're willing to wait and not use them until they dry. Personally, I would want them to dry for more than a year. Regardless of that decision you should complain to the vendor. If it's a mistake they should know they made a mistake, if it's not a mistake they should know that we can tell and don't find it acceptable.
Author:  Sam Price [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
I bought some tonewood last year that was still green; after a while you get a feel for when wood has been properly dried.

For me, I would still order "green" wood, if the price was right. It's being aware which vendor has a tendancy to sell wet wood, and purchasing with that knowledge, or finding another.

I'd say, store the wood and let it air dry SLOWLY. Any green wood I do get, I coat the ends, stack, and forget about it for the rest of the year...depending on the thickness.
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
The grade AAA appears correct as the boards look even and well quartered. as for the moisture content , you said they are air dried and from India. As one that imports wood from India , you and others in this forum can use this information I am about to give.
I will go through a few hundred sets of EIR myself . I will order from India , and most of you know of Gemwood. He will send it air dried but US Customs require importers to have the wood Fumigated. This is a process of dipping in most cases and it is a water based agent. It is not unlike the condition you are showing.
Learning the art of storing wood is as important as learning a good gluing technique. Any wood that isn't stickered and weighted will want to move. So with that set up an area and clamp your wood or at least have some weight on it to help to hold it flat. If you don't you will see the wood propeller twist or warp. The cupped side is the dry side . If you have this happening it is because the wood is exposed to changes of humidity.
Once it is twisted it can be brought back but you have to know what you are doing . Patience is key. What good is having a nice supply if you don't know how to care for it. You can end up with very expensive fire wood.
Try and store wet wood where there is a good air flow. If it is dried than you can put it on a shelf. Avoid heater vents if you can but the return vents are fine.
wood is a natural substance and it prone to movement as cells take on and release moisture .
good luck ,
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
Wet wood from India is the rule rather than the exception. They seem clueless about the drying process.

In a sense, for sure it was air-dried both in India and by your supplier; all that means is that it was exposed to air, and not kiln dried. The question is, air dried to what moisture content. But I agree that they tried to imply that it was dry.

Grade? Not AAA+. The upper board maybe AAA. The curvature of the grain and lighter color on the lower board make it AA in my book.

I like EIR for back and sides. I do not like it for fingerboards. Too coarse-grained, and there are harder, denser, oilier rosewoods that work better and wear better for about the same price, or a couple of dollars more. But hey, it works, it isn't a big purchase, and it's good to keep wood around before using. Rosewood air dries slowly; major suppliers like LMI and Allied kiln it. Expect about a year before those boards are ready.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
David,

I also import from India and the wood is ALWAYS wet when I get it. I tend to think it is because it is freshly sawn rather than dipped for fumigation purposes. Typically my experience is that fumigation occurs by polluting an environment, usually a small container, with fumigating agents (poisons!) and then removing them and placing them in the shipping container. But I could be wrong because I haven't asked my supplier, but that is what happens if I need fumigation for export. I would indeed let the vendor know about your situation. And if you like those boards, keep them. Wood won't be any cheaper a year from now when those ones are ready for use. A great none invasive method for checking their moisture condition is to simply regularly weigh them on a small postal scale. When they have reached equilibrium with your shop their weight will stabilize. No need for poking holes in them. Also, I think most metres need 3/4 inch of material to make accurate measurements, could be wrong there too though. idunno

Shane
Author:  Tom Morici [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
Dave F,

Plenty of good advice already, this is the norm on this forum.
Hence, I seldom post. The red flag for me 10.9% MC is not dry
as far as I am concerned. 6-8% MC has always been the standard.
I hope this helps!

Tom
Author:  grumpy [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
Expecting ANY wood to be dry and ready to use the moment it arrives, no matter what was implied, is bad policy. With that in mind, sticker the wood, and use it next year.

I try to stay 3+ years ahead of my wood use cycle, though it can certainly be shorter than that. I don't even own a moisture meter; I simply store my wood in my environment until ready to use it.
Author:  paul harrell [ Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
Even if the wood was dipped, this would only have a short term effect on the moisture content. It is the bound water in the cells you have to get rid of for the wood to be really dry

Paul
Author:  joel Thompson [ Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
If your not happy with your wood in any way send it back.
the vendor should be fine with this as long as you swallow shipping costs.

also these fingerboards are not AAA.
i would grade them at AA becouse of the wide grain and the wavy grain.
the good grade indian rosewood is very dark and dense and much finer grained.

Shane is right about the wood being allways being wet when it comes from india.
i get my stock from india and it usualy arrives wet.
i have one suppier that does kiln dry sometimes but it is still usualy about 20% moisture.

maybe the vendor sent wet wood becouse thats all he had he in stock i am sure he will be happy to replace it for you.


good luck,

joel.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wet Wood Dilemma
Thanks for all your answers everyone. I guess I'll keep them until they're dry enough to use and have a word with the vendor to let them know about the issue. They were less than $8 each, so not too bad a deal even considering they aren't quite AAA quality, and it's really not worth eating the shipping costs over.

Shane - correct, you really need 3/4" thick wood to get a really accurate reading (that's what it says in the instruction manual). However, I did some experiments a while back that showed that you can guesstimate the MC of wood as thin as 1/4" pretty reliably by adding an adjustment factor to the reading shown on the meter. For 1/4" wood, add 1.5%. For 1/2" wood, add 1%. These adjustments give me the MC to plenty good enough accuracy for my purposes. Any wood over 3/4" thick reads about the same as 3/4" thick wood. Since these EIRW fingerboards are just over 1/4", I should add 1.5%, which makes them even wetter than 32%!!

BTW, the Wagner meter I have is pinless (uses radio frequencies to do the measuring), so it's completely non-intrusive. I take it with me anytime I'm buying wood locally - it's great to know how wet boards are before buying them IMO.

Tom - The equilibrium MC varies widely depending on where you live and the season. 10.8% is the equilibrium number where I live (in San Jose, CA) right now. It's fairly high at the moment cuz it's the rainy season (joke :D ). It goes way down in the summer - to around 6 or 7%.

Cheers,
Dave F.
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