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The Prototype returns from Joe White
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Author:  KenH [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  The Prototype returns from Joe White
I just got My Prototype back from Joe White today and MAN O MAN what a perfect finish!!

I fretted the fingerboard today but it still needs to be assembled. Check out the shine Joe got on this Boxelder!

You got my business from now on Joe!

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Author:  Rod True [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Wow Ken, that's some serious gloss dude [:Y:]

You know we want to see more pics pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease pizza
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Great color combo Ken!
Author:  KenH [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
ok, just one more pic.... I'll post more when I get it all put together :)

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Author:  Hesh [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Wow Ken not only is that Joe White - Sunset Finishing finish superb your guitar looks very cool too!!!!!

Is this one for the Miami show?

Nice work Ken and Joe and be sure to post pics of the guitar when completed please?

[:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Man that's some gloss. What a great finish. The Box Elder looks great, Ken!
Author:  LanceK [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Nice Ken!
She looks, well -- FAST! [:Y:]
Author:  Todd Rose [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Ken, the gloss, depth, and colors look amazing. The photos also give me the impression of a somewhat thick looking finish. Whether it actually IS thick or not (I'm assuming it's not) is a separate issue, but I'd like to know whether it has a thick look to you "in the flesh", or whether that's just an effect of the photo.

Thanks.
Author:  KenH [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
I havent actually measured the finish thickness, but I am guessing it is no more than 5 mils thick...maybe thinner. It does have the appearance that it is quite thick because of its clarity and shine. I am more impressed with it every time I look at it. The finish brought out details in the wood that I didnt even know were there. By the way, this is a catalyzed poly finish. I am expecting this to be a much more durable finish than the nitro I have been using.

For anyone considering doing business with Joe, I highly Reccommend him. He is VERY reasonably priced, the turn around time was outstanding and I was kept in the loop with details and pictures during the whole process of finishing the guitars. (yes, plural). I will have another guitar to show you in the next few days that will blow your socks off that Joe has finished for me. Any of you going to the Miami show will get a chance to have a hands on experience with my guitars and Joe's finishes. Be sure to look me up!

I will be glad to answer any questions you have about my whole experience with Joe so far, but I can tell you that it is extremely positive. What a blessing it is to have a guy like this on the forum!
Author:  KenH [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
I had to remove the finish this afternoon under the bridge area and since you had asked I actually got out my digital micrometer and measured the thickness of the finish. I had guessed 5 mills and wasnt off by far. It actually measured out at 0.0485

The appearance of the finish is that it is several inches deep. I'm loving the clarity of this cat poly!
Author:  KenH [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
I got it put together today and strung it up. As I expected, it doesnt have a whole lot of volume.....yet. I'll install the pickup in it tomorrow and then have all the volume I want. This guitar was designed to be an acoustic that plays like an electric, so all is well so far. It will get a B-Band A-11 pickup tomorrow.

Here is what it looks like strung up.

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Author:  Jim Watts [ Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Hey Ken,
I'm hoping you left out a zero there, as .0485 is a little over 1mm.
However if you didn't how did you measure to 5 decimal places?
Oh, the guitar looks great BTW. Hope it works out like you hope.
Author:  Billy T [ Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Really great work Ken!
I like that wood a lot!
Beautiful finish! [:Y:]
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Todd I may be able to answer your question for you with some data.

On my guitar that Joe White finished I measured the finish in the fret board extension area. Once I could successfully get a piece off without some wood (the stuff sticks like crazy to the wood and will not flake like nitro....) it was .004 thick near the bindings in that area. The areas near the perimeter of the guitar (binding) tend to be a tad thicker because the bindings have to be sprayed at a 3/4 degree angle - hence they get more finish build-up. Correct me if I am wrong Joe OK?

My bridges have a ledge cut in them so that the outer most edge sits on top of the finish for a neat install. The ledge is . 003 - .004 high from the bottom surface of the bridge. Once installed I checked the bridge and could stick a .001 feeler into this pocket, between the bridge and the finish surface in the ledge, but nothing thicker. This tells me that the finish in the bridge area is around .003 thick. This is extraordinarily thin and exactly what I would want.

It's also the thinnest finish that I have measured on any of my guitars except for the french polished guitar. Needless to say I am thrilled and greatly appreciate the effort that Joe goes to to provide us with very thin, durable, and super pretty finishes.

In addition Joe uses McFaddens Rosewood sealer as a tie-coat to ensure a superior bond for the catalyzed poly. In my experience this tie-coat not only seals oily woods such as rosewoods but it adds the very slightest hint of an amber tint as well. It also pops the wood as well as epoxy but without the film thickness of epoxy. Joe pore fills with epoxy but sands the epoxy back so that it is only in the pores and there is no epoxy coating on the entire guitar. This was desirable to me too.

This "system" Joe learned with the help of Rick and Mario and is the same system that Taylor guitars developed and uses. Many thanks to Rick and Mario for helping Joe get started.

What has resulted is the best finish that I have used and seen. I would not hesitate to recommend Joe's finishes to any one and I plan on using him for all of my guitars going forward.
Author:  Marc [ Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Wow! Looks great Ken, very nice. I don't think it is possible to obtain a higher gloss than that.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
I want to echo what Hesh said, the finish is super thin but canyon deep looking. It is amazing! And Ken, that guitar looks great! The color in the Elder and the binding and fretboard look great! I want to know what it sounds like.
Author:  KenH [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Thanks for all of the kind words! One thing I have to say first is that Joe did me a HUGE favor. When I sent thise guitar to him, I had just had an extremely bad time with a wood allergy to Pao Ferro. On top of that, I had been experiencing something similar to the flu for a couple of weeks. My head wasnt thinking straight and my craftsmanship was suffering because of it. Joe pulled me through by completing some of the detail work that I had omitted and fixed a couple of my blunders before he put the finish on the guitar. he didnt have to do this, but I guess he felt sorry for me and the condition I was in. I am forever grateful for his willingness to help me out during my time of suffering! I am in awe every time I look at this guitar!

Now, about the sound:

I got the pickups installed today. It is a Bband A-11 UST pickup and has 3 individual POTs for the controls. It was a trick installing these as I couldnt get my hands inside the guitar to guide anything. Somehow I managed to get it installed though. Gluing on the bridge was a real challenge also.

Playing acoustically without a pickup, the guitar doesnt have much volume. The sustain is not as prominent as my other acoustics, but is ok. When you plug this thing in....... WOW !!! I guess it is because I chose to use the 4 one inch holes for the sound holes, but the bass is incredible! Clear, punchy, and bright trebles too. The A-11 pickup is all it says it is. It does give a pretty good acoustic sound to this thin bodied guitar (2" thick). I did try out the feedback and it is virtually nill. I guess the smaller sound holes help eliminate the feedback issue. Even playing right in front of the amp it is quiet as a mouse as far as feedback is concerned.

The boxelder back tickles your stomach while you are plaing it. I have a lot more vibration from the back on this guitar than I have ever got out of any of my other guitars. The electric style neck was a breeze to bolt on. I wish I had made the neck a little thinner, but it is easy enought o change out the neck later if I choose. 4 screws ans it's off. Who ever it was that talked me into making the neck for this guitar should be commended. It wasnt that hard to do and I actually enjoyed making it from a piece of 1x4 curly maple. I got all of the bloodwood binding, bridge, fingerboard and headstock materials from one piece of 1x4 bloodwood that I bought at woodcraft. I made all of the BWB purflings using some maple veneer I bought on eBay and also some black stained veneer I got from eBay. The top purflings I bought from a company called DOMO international. It is all wood also. I love the red color!

Boxelder is not my favorite wood to work with. It has worm holes. It splinters easy, and has a tendency to develop splits in the wood at a moments notice. it burns easy on the pipe bender (I bent this guitars sides on a pipe bender). I did not have a mold to build this guitar in but I used a template and just matched it up best I could to the template. This guitar is the exact same shape as a Martin OM except for the cutaway (or lack thereof). The whole upper bout is solid western red cedar. I wanted a good structure to bolt the neck onto and making this part solid seemed the right thing to do.

The top is Englemann spruce. I sold some of this same spruce in the last OLF swapmeet. No runout and medularry rays throughout. even Joe noticed how pretty this stuff was. I went pretty thin on the bracing and used a bracing scheme I had been wanting to try out for some time. It has the traditional X brace, but that is as far as it goes for tradition. The lower bout is braced like a classical fan brace, witht he fans all attached to a "mario's tone bar" just behind the bridge plate. There is one brace running right up the center of the guitar from the intersection of the X, all the way to the base of the neck.

I put a set of Gotoh 510's on it for tuners....18:1. This is the first time I have used a waterslide decal for the headstock. I think I learned a lesson on those and am not sure if I will use them again. Somehow the yellow color on the lightning bolt seemed to dissappear. the red and black colors show up fine though.

The bridge on this guitar is my new "standard" bridge and one of the first I have used that was made on my new CNC machine. I am thrilled with the way it turned out!

This guitar will be shown at the Miami guitar festival in April. It is scheduled to be played by Kinloch Nelson, and I will be sure to get some recordings of it when he plays it. As planned, this guitar plays like an electric, but sounds like an acoustic.

Thanks again for the kind reviews!
Author:  John Kinnaird jr [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Late to the party as usual, but let me add my praises Ken. Great looking guitar! The finish is top notch, but what I really like is the color in the box elder and the artistry of the soundholes and the repeat color in the bindings. Very creative !

John
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Ken and Hesh, thanks for your replies addressing my question. I don't think I made my question completely clear, though. I see three separate (though closely related) issues:

The first is the actual thickness of the finish, including variations in thickness that may exist in certain areas of the guitar (edges, corners, etc).

The second is the appearance of depth that the finish brings out in the wood (basically a result of the wood "wetting" effect and the clarity and gloss of the finish). This is what I believe Ken ("several inches deep") and Burton ("canyon deep") were referring to.

The third is the appearance of thickness of the finish itself. Whether it actually is relatively thick or relatively thin, a finish can have more or less of a "dipped in plastic" thick look to it, to put it crudely. I don't mean to disparage Joe's work or the look of your guitar at all, Ken, I'm just trying to use descriptive terms and get a sense of your perception of this finish with regard to this particular aspect. The photos give me an impression of a thick look in this respect, and I'm interested to know if it looks that way to you in reality, because photos can be deceptive.

I hope that's more clear. I realize I'll ultimately have to make my own judgement of polyester finishes, and of Joe's finishes in particular (I'm eagerly looking forward to having an opportunity to see them with my own eyes), but it's still helpful to hear what other people's impressions are as well.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Todd.... I can certainly address your question based only upon my opinion and observation of lots of guitars finished in Nitro, Waterbased lacquer, hand applied varnish, True Oil, FPed Shellac, catalyzed polyurethane, and catalyzed polyester. I've seen them all and I personally have finished in 4 of the above.

First, my preference for the finish on an acoustic guitar is to have an extremely thin protective coat of FP'ed shellac or True oil and some of the hand rubbed varnishes I've seen. In this regard, I just happen to subscribe to the school of thought that I want the least impact on the movement of the top and its interference with tone.

Of the other finishes I have witnessed, I feel that the thickness of the polyester has all of the best qualities...thinness, hardness and clarity. The remaining materials appear to be softer or "bluer" or thicker or any combination.

Having compared polyurethane and polyester side by side I found that the urethane was softer and looked much thicker. Because of this, to my eye, the polyester looked clearer and deeper without seeming thick. I hope that makes sense.

On the electric that I just had finished in polyester, it was applied much thicker yet still retains its remarkable clarity. It is the finest finish I have ever seen on a guitar even exceeding that which I have seen on PRS electrics.

It's all a matter of choice...I prefer more natural finishes on acoustics while I love the shiney poly on electrics. I may choose to FP the tops of acoustics and have poly on the B&S...but that's a decision I'll make later.
Author:  KenH [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Todd,
I am aware of the "dipped in plastic" look and I can definitely tell you that this doesnt look that way in person. It is quite a clear finish. I think that is the difference between this finish and the nitro I am used to. Since the finish is so darn clear it gives that "inches deep" look, much like a quality paint job does on a car. In comparison, the nitro has a "sandy" look to it. You would have to hold one guitar next to the other to see what I am talking about, but there is a distinct difference.

This guitar is so different - by design - that I cant comment on the effect the finish has on the guitar. This guitar was designed to have almost no acoustic properties. I have another guitar that is coming from Joe that will tell the tale of how it sounds. I'll post that when I get the chance.

I did want to mention that Joe does Nitro finishes as well as the cat polyester. It is just that I wanted this finish and I am extremely happy with it. This is one discussion that I am sure will come up at the Miami show. I look forward to seeing other's work and comparing not only the guitars, but the finishes as well. It is the reason that I wanted to attend the show in the first place. I encourage all that can attend to come on down :)
Author:  Todd Rose [ Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Thanks, JJ and Ken, for your replies. Very helpful.

I wish I could make it to the Miami show!
Author:  Kirt Myers [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Real nice job Ken. Great colors in there.
And I though Box Elder was only good for campfires.
Looks like I'm wrong again.
Author:  Sam Price [ Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Prototype returns from Joe White
Ken, that's a fascinating looking guitar. You have made a seemingly innocuous wood seem very useful and attrctive.
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