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Fish Glue
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Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Fish Glue
I'm totally new to guitar building and I'm still trying to decide on which glue to use. I've been reading old post here and I see fish glue mentioned here and there but never a full explaination of its properties or comparison to HHG. So what are the pro's and con's? I know it has a long open time but what about hardness,creep, pulling the joint tighter, clean up, ease of deconstruction, is the glue joint invisible,etc? How does it compare to HHG? From a few things I've read it almost sounds like HHG without the hassle.
Author:  KenH [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Welcome to the forum Jeremy!

I use fish glue in certain places, but not all of my joints are glued using this glue. It has a little longer open time than other glues such as titebond, and is virtually invisible when applied properly. Most first time builders over do the glue used, no matter what kind. My advice, no matter what kind of glue you are using, is to remember that less is more.

Fish glue has been used for centuries and is an excellent glue. I am using it more and more with my builds, especially when I need a little longer cure time. It doesnt creep as far as I know and is easily softened with steam or water if you need to un do the joint later. I like using it to attach the sides to the top and back of the guitar and I am using it for my wood bindings as well.

Again, welcome to the forum!
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Fish Glue, like HHG, is a collagen glue, which evaporates as it dries, thus drawing the joints together. Some think it is too moisture sensitive, but tests here at OLF have belied that point. I believe Colin S. has tested it pretty well in his shower room, for months, and has not had a glue failure. It is very sticky, and a little harder to clean up than HHG, but is just as hard, and crystallizes as it dries, so there is no glue creep. One disadvantage, is the 12 hour clamp/cure time. It works like TiteBond or LMI White, but has the properties of Hide Glue. When dry, it will scrape off, but takes much more effort than the equivalent in the other glues, in my opinion. It is definitely tough stuff.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
David Collins, one of the best repair guys on the planet, got me into fish glue and I like the stuff.

As the others have mentioned it dries very hard, as hard as HHG in my opinion, will pull the parts together but that is a double edged sword because like with HHG your parts must fit very well prior to gluing since the glue joint from HHG and FG will be very thin on a molecular level. Another way to say this is that FG is not a gap filler.

It does not however clean up as easy as HHG and can be like cleaning up cotton candy, very stringy, irritating, etc.

It disassembles easily but only when you want it to and I am not in the camp that is concerned about it's resistance to moisture. If your instruments are going to be around enough moisture to damage the FG joint they will be floaters any way......

I use it where I would like to use HHG but lack the chops to pull it off in the limited open time for HHG. For now I am using it to glue tops and backs onto the rim.

Great stuff - just be sure to keep the jar in the fridge and away from the Skippy Chunky peanut butter if you are inclined to middle of the night peanut butter raids like I am.......
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Jeremy;
http://www.norlandprod.com/fishgel/
will give you some good info!
I like it allot!
The fact that it dries hard may be good for a guitars sound!

But it's high tack-it'll stick to your hands!!!!!
So keep a moist cloth handy!!!
mike
Author:  David LaPlante [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
I like it too..........it's great for gluing up veneer sandwiches to make marquetries in that it gives you more time to work than Titebond.....I used to only get about half way through a glue up before the Titebond would start to get snotty.
Fish glue is great for individual glue blocks (high quick tack),
top braces (they don't slide around) and backs (more open time).
I like the smell too.......
But STICKY........take Mike's advice and keep a moist cloth around.
Author:  ChuckH [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Where do you buy your Fish glue?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Lee Valley seems a good source. You can buy from Norland cheaper, but you have to buy a lot at a time. If you could get a few people to go in together and buy a gallon, you'd save a bunch. A gallon, seems to me, isn't more than twice what a quart is, from Lee Valley.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Thanks, great replies. I'm pretty sure I'll go with the fish glue.

What about shelf life, how long till it goes bad?
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
David Collins buys it once a year and I get mine from him. He advised me to keep it in the fridge when not in use.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
I have been told that this glue has an almost idefinite shelf life. I have some that has been in the fridge for a couple of years. Is it still useful?
Author:  David R White [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
The Lee Valley glue is advertised as having a 2 year shelf life.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
I was watching the HBO special "John Adams" last night and Ben Franklin said that "fish and visitors have a useful life of 3 days...." :D

I am not sure why David Collins purchases a fresh batch annually but I know that he does.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
How should I clean it of the guitar? Let's say I'm gluing a top brace and to clean up the squeeze out should I use a moist cloth or let it dry then scrape it off?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
I recommend getting up as much as you can while it's wet. It is some tough stuff when dry.
Author:  KenH [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
I have learned to limit squeeze out to almost nothting, but I make it a routine to take a piece of scrap spruce and run it along the glue lines and joints to pick up any that does squeeze out. Someone on here had a good tut on doing this a while back with HHG, and it works well with fish glue as well. I think Hesh was the one...

Anyway, if you let is set long enough to forma slight skin, you can scrape it right off without any smearing with a piece of scrap spruce or some other pointed piece of wood.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Thanks, I just placed my order with Lee Valley.

Would this be ok for gluing the fretboard down or is epoxy a must?
Author:  KenH [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
I suppose it would be ok, but I prefer titebond for the fingerboard to top joint. The reason for titebond is because it is so easily removed with an iron if you need to remove it.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Hodges_Guitars wrote:
I suppose it would be ok, but I prefer titebond for the fingerboard to top joint. The reason for titebond is because it is so easily removed with an iron if you need to remove it.


What about gluing the fingerboard to the neck?

Thanks
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
For the past 7 guitars I have used epoxy for the FB to neck joint. I used HHG for the first and got a severe backbow from the water in the glue. I would avoid Titebond, HHG, FG or any other water-containing glue for that reason.

FG is ideal for gluing top and back plates to the rims. I have also used it for internal cracks and breaks.
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Robbie O'Brien wrote:
I have been told that this glue has an almost idefinite shelf life. I have some that has been in the fridge for a couple of years. Is it still useful?


Robbie, in practice it should last virtually indefinitely, Lee Valley says two years, but the Kremer glue I buy from Germany (all made by Norland) says five years. I guess the US lawyers were playing on the safe side again.

Colin
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
JJ Donohue wrote:
For the past 7 guitars I have used epoxy for the FB to neck joint. I used HHG for the first and got a severe backbow from the water in the glue. I would avoid Titebond, HHG, FG or any other water-containing glue for that reason.



ah, so that's why epoxy is used for gluing the fretboard on :idea:

Thanks [:Y:]
Author:  Rick Turner [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
The best and most moisture resistant of the fish glues is "isinglass". You can get it from supply houses that cater to the museum object restoration business. It's made from the air bladders of Russian or Baltic sturgeon. It's expensive...
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fish Glue
Colin S wrote:
Robbie O'Brien wrote:
I have been told that this glue has an almost idefinite shelf life. I have some that has been in the fridge for a couple of years. Is it still useful?


Robbie, in practice it should last virtually indefinitely, Lee Valley says two years, but the Kremer glue I buy from Germany (all made by Norland) says five years. I guess the US lawyers were playing on the safe side again.

Colin


Thanks Colin. That is what I thought. I have a friend here in Colorado that took the Romanillos course a few years ago and he uses his fish glue indefinitely until it runs out without putting it in the fridge even.
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