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Cutting the binding slots
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Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Cutting the binding slots
OK, getting close. What I need here is advice. Can I do the cutting with a router table and router (laminate) or should I just get the fixture from John Hall.

Mike
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
You can do it with a standard router or laminate trimer, but It seems to me a table router will be combersom. If you don't have a binding jig to route, the thickness of your bindings will be slightly uneven around the contour of the guitar, but otherwise you will be ok.
Author:  gozierdt [ Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Mike,

I would think that cutting the binding slots on a router table would be very difficult. The dome of the soundboard
keeps the edge of the guitar up off the router table, and means you would have to continually change the height
of the bit as you go around the guitar. The two most common ways are to use a handheld router with an
adapter plate that holds the bit vertical and parallel to the side of the guitar, or to use one of the router set-ups
that uses a slide or a 4-bar linkage to hold the router vertical while routing. John's jig is the first type (Stewart-
Macdonald also sells one), and the Williams/Fleischman jig is the second type. Search "binding jig" in the archives
and you'll find lots of discussions. I will say I have one of John's bending jigs, and its a very well made jig. He has
an excellent reputation for quality products.

You'll also need one of the router bit/bearing kits from LMI or S-M to control the depth of the cut into the top and
back.
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
I made my own binding cutter, it was really easy to make and a couple of pictures will get you there no problem.

It's certainly not fancy but it works great.

First off I should mention that it's the type of cutter that you move the guitar body and not the cutter (router). Some folks don't like this method but it works fine for Larrivee and Taylor, and it works fine for me too.

Roy Ott made a better one than mine and here's the link to his in the archives.

Here's a picture to peak your interest.

Image

Than you can check out the video's at Taylor Guitars, their Factory Friday shows their binding cutting routine, here's the first of two
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
So, how does that jig solve the problem of the convex back?

Mike
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
the roller or bars index the sides the full width of the sides but the top pr back indexes only a very small section of the top or back. The sides rollers or bars keeps the bit square to the sides the small top or back index controls the depth of the cut in relationship to that very small contact area of the top or back.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7775&hilit=binding

In one of the pics, the slide (roller) is tilted up at an angle... is that the key to it?

It seems to me that the problem is not with the top since that is flat all the way around. Its the back where the problem exists. Sorry, I know most of you know this. But I am not cutting anything on any jig until I fully understand the problem! :D
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
slackkey_mike wrote:
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7775&hilit=binding

In one of the pics, the slide (roller) is tilted up at an angle... is that the key to it?

It seems to me that the problem is not with the top since that is flat all the way around. Its the back where the problem exists. Sorry, I know most of you know this. But I am not cutting anything on any jig until I fully understand the problem! :D



Tops is not flat!! it is a segment of a sphere!! With intersections to the side plane at continiously varying distances from the center of that sphere.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Mike buddy here are some more choices for you:

Honda Civic: You can make a wedge shaped donut from MDF scrap and coat it with a few coats of shellac to stabilize the MDF. Attach it to a laminate trimmer and make a mark where the wedge is the thinest.

Using the binding bit set from Tracy, LMI, or Stew-Mac make climb cuts first and then do the entire guitar top or back. The wedge angle was determined by taking the two domes that I use, 15' and 25' respectively and computing the proper angle for the average of the two, 20'. I am forgetting what this angle is but you can compute your own angle for the domes that you use. If I was not so lazy I would have made two donuts, one for the back and one for the top.

It is held to the router base with double stick tape.

Downside: As Alain indicated the binding channels will not be perfectly uniform but they will be substantially better than using a laminate trimmer by hand and not using a donut.

Upside: Cost - it costs nothing to make.

Attachment:
DSC01525.jpg


Attachment:
DSC01526.jpg


Attachment:
DSC01527.jpg


Lexus: This jig from Luthier Tools is probably the nicest guitar making jig in terms of how well it is made that I have ever owned. And a number of OLFers like Arnt, Serge, and others have made their own as well. It registers on the sides and is also used in production by some of the factories.

Downside: If you do not make your own it is around $200 if I recall correctly. It is also possible to tip the router and jig inward toward the guitar and take a divot out of your top or back. Users report that once they get used to using it this is not an issue. Lastly you will need to make a jig to hold the guitar in place and the jig has to be low enough to clear the double bearing arm of this jig.

Upside: Perfect results can be obtained with this jig. In addition it uses a spiral down-cut bit which makes a cleaner cut, costs less, less filling..... Again you can make your own as well.

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DSCN1228r.jpg


Bentley: The Williams jig available from John Hall at Blues Creek. This jig, like the Bentley, takes up more space but IMHO is the best solution going. It is so idiot proof, just what I need, that it is possible to route a binding channel blind folded although I would not recommend or try this........ The router is held perfectly vertical at all times taking the domes completely out of play.

Downside: Cost if you purchase one, around $275ish but don't quote me on this. It requires more space to set it up and use it.

Upside: Perfect results every time. Reduced fear factor from ease of use.

Attachment:
DSCN2239r.jpg


Aston Martin: Williams Jig with Dave White Modification. Although I don't have a picture of this and I hope that Dave or Colin will weigh-in here this is a version of the Williams jig with a turntable below the router so the router can rotate AND if I recall correctly you can also use a spiral down-cut bit as well.

Downside: Cost of the Williams jig but you can make this entire jig yourself too. Space requirements.

Upside: Cleanest cut, perfect results, and IMHO bragging rights as the best solution available.
Author:  Erik Hauri [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Not to disparage oneself....but I made one of the "idiot proof" binding cutters from a drawer mounted to drawer slides in a frame, suspended on a spring. Just in case an idiot moved into the shop after me....does the job.

Image

Image
Author:  Rich Schnee [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Attachment:
IMG_1143 (Small).JPG
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
How does that one work Rich? There is no bearing on there.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
MichaelP wrote:

Tops is not flat!! it is a segment of a sphere!! With intersections to the side plane at continiously varying distances from the center of that sphere.


Flatter than the back! Whats the radius of the top? Sorry, but I have not inspected top braces that closely... will do so pronto

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
BarryDaniels wrote:
How does that one work Rich? There is no bearing on there.


That looks like the "blood & guts" binding cutter. Literally!

Hesh, THANKYOU!!!! for the great tutorial. I like the Williams (Bentley) but worry about space. The jig holding he guitar is on a lazy susan, right? You spin the guitar? It also looks like the "arm" is on a spin platform... why?

If these two parts (the jig, and the router arm) can be stowed after use, in other words, placement of the two parts is not critical when re-using, then I like it the best.

Mike
Author:  Rich Schnee [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Sorry guys…I am not ready to post the lower assembly, but I am sure you’ll love it when you see it.

As for the telescoping arm assemble, it really isn’t all that more expensive to make than using wood and it stores nicely against the wall when not in use.
Attachment:
IMG_1156 (Small).JPG
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Mike you are very welcome my friend.

The guitar is held stationary in the jig on the right and the jig's arm extends to reach all the way around the guitar. So it is very much like hand routing except that the router is held absolutely vertical at all times. The only slip-up that you can make is to slip off the guitar back or top but this will not damage anything.

I store the jig(s) under the bench that you see when not in use and I have holes pre-drilled in the bench and use wing nuts to clamp it in place when in use.

Originally I did not go this route because of the space requirements but the results are very much worth it IMHO.

Attachment:
DSC00681.jpg
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
OK, I get it now.

Thanks!

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Rich S wrote:
Sorry guys…I am not ready to post the lower assembly, but I am sure you’ll love it when you see it.

As for the telescoping arm assemble, it really isn’t all that more expensive to make than using wood and it stores nicely against the wall when not in use.
Attachment:
IMG_1156 (Small).JPG


Lemme guess, the lower assembly is a guy (or gal) with three fingers on one hand and two on the other.

Mike :D
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Hesh wrote:
Mike you are very welcome my friend.

Attachment:
DSC00681.jpg


Hesh, please do me a favor and provide the table top dimensions.

Thinking maybe about building a workbench for many needs, go-bar, shaping, etc.

Thanks!

Mike
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
slackkey_mike wrote:
MichaelP wrote:

Tops is not flat!! it is a segment of a sphere!! With intersections to the side plane at continiously varying distances from the center of that sphere.


Flatter than the back! Whats the radius of the top? Sorry, but I have not inspected top braces that closely... will do so pronto

Mike


Mike most tops are anywhere from 25' radius to 30' radius. Me though, I use a totally flat top, no radius here.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
Mike buddy the table top is 24" X 48" pre-cut Borg MDF.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
I checked the braces. They appear to have some curvature but nothing like the back braces which were set for 25 feet. So technically the top has some curvature, but in this case is almost flat.

Thanks Hesh... now I just got to find those Williams plans... seems I misplaced them.

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
I remember that White modification... some lengthy discussion about it some time ago.

Will search the archives... Given the cost of the Williams and the fact that I do not have a table saw, I think I just found an excuse to by a table saw! (would rather build the jig)

Mike
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
You know, it has occured to me that the Williams jig could be used with a sanding drum to "trim" down the top and back after they are attached (assuming a mountable drive system can be found, other than a high speed router).

Mike
Author:  Zach Ehley [ Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting the binding slots
I went straight for the Aston Martin. That way I can use a standard 1/4" downspiral bit, no messing with bearings.. I had to mod the guide bearing on my Makita trimmer to get enough cut depth. See the following thread.

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16398&hilit=
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