Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey, guys. I'm saving up right now to go to a long-term program, but I'm having some trouble deciding where to go. So far, of the schools I've seen Roberto-Venn and Galloup seem to be the most interesting. Then again, I haven't seen every single school out there so if anyone else has some other suggestions, please feel free to throw them in. Basically I'm looking for the best or most thorough school or program that I can find.

I'm wondering if any of you out there have attended these schools or know more about them. If you've attended, what has your experience there been like and how well do you feel has it prepared you for a career in the craft? I'm looking to get into lutherie as a profession, not just a hobby so this is very important to me.

I hope you guys can give me some guidance. Thanks. ^^

I think step two is the harder part. Of the guys I know personally who've gone to one of the schools and succeeded, they either ended up getting an apprenticeship with a respected builder or working at a boutique guitar company afterwards and that gave them the credibility. All the guys I know who went to school went to Roberto-Venn, but I've never asked them for their opinions about the school.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Ask David Collins about Gallop he used to teach there.

Also ask John Abercrombie about Sergio's school, he went last year.

I can't really be objective, obviously because of what Hesh pointed out. Though I've worked with several luthiers who have gone through Roberto-Venn, I don't know much about the school. I'm also at the disadvantage of being nearly a decade separated from Galloup's, and much has changed in both the facilities and curriculum since I've left, and the same goes for the colleagues I've worked with that have gone through Roberto-Venn.

There are certainly a lot of other schools out there beside those (seems to be another one popping up every other week), but those along with Red Wing are some of the more established ones which have been around for quite a while. I certainly do have preference for a curriculum with a suitable emphasis on repair, even if your goal is to focus on building. I feel repair skills are much more useful when crossing over to building than the other way around.

Whatever you choose, it's a big decision. Any school that you seriously consider attending after some research, it will be worth your time to plan a trip where you can spend a day observing and seeing it in person. In the big picture, a plane ticket and hotel bill is small change when betting your time and tuition money on career training at a school.

And of course, I don't know of any school that can guarantee you to be able to go out and hit the ground running on your own. There's no substitute for experience, and a post-training apprenticeship or employment is the next big step. Finding good positions can be difficult, but it doesn't hurt to check around before enrollment, and some of the schools may have some regular contacts and possible job placement opportunities.

Good luck!

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I jump-started my luthier career by attending Brian Galloup's School approx. 8 years ago. I would rate my over-all experience as Excellent. While it takes years to really master the craft, professional training will provide you with the knowledge and skills to work with confidence. As with any School you may attend ( College), you will get out of it what " you " put into it. Good luck.

I attende Roberto-Venn way back in 1992, so it has been a while. At that time the course was four months of intensive study. At that time the course centered on the design and building of an acoustic and an electric guitar and their completion within the four months.
All bases are covered including inlay, set-up work, finishing and basic sharpening and hand tool skills.

Their current curriculum includes instruction on instrument repair which is quite usefull. When I got out of school I was able to start a small repair shop in New Mexico which paid the bilss for quite some time. I certainly was not building guitars as soon as I got out of school due to a lack of a proper shop. The repair thing got me over the hump and into some equipment.

The instructors at the school were very helpful and informative, always ready to give you the advice to tackle your problems and get the job accomplished. It certainly gave me some confidence to try things I might not otherwise have considered. I had a great time at the school. Plus the Mexican food around that area kicked some serious butt.

The thing is that spending around $20,000 in overall expenses is a huge investment for me and honestly I can't afford not to get it right the first time around nor can I afford to fail. The problem I perceive with lutherie is the fact that it's not exactly a standardized professions where you have a set path to getting into it, but then again I suppose that's the issue with any craft or trade... I hear so many stories about people getting into the industry without attending long-term schools or simply by having good luck and finding good apprenticeships. I guess the requirements would depend largely on what exactly you're aiming to get into and perhaps my biggest issue is that I'm not entirely familiar with the business of lutherie...

Unfortunately, I don't personally know any luthiers nor have I had any real connections with luthiers in my life beyond bringing my guitar in for a repair or a setup. I suppose this forum is my first real attempt to connect with the community and get to know it, but much of it is still a mystery to me. For instance, how would most people find an apprenticeship or an entry level position that they can learn and grow from? What qualifications are employers in this business looking for in their employees? Does the school or program you come out of make a big difference in their decisions? To that extent, are there schools that are considered better or more prestigious than others?

Thanks, guys.

Michael,

You have gotten some good advice already. I think you are taking the proper course of action by thoroughly investigating the different schools as to which one will give you the best foundation to proceed in your carrier choice. Big decisions and commitments should never be made without forethought and understanding of the issues.

I have no answers for you regarding the different schools. My advice is to always interview the school and make sure that you can get what you desire and pay for. My thoughts are that all schools like this, whatever the curriculum, are happy to take your money as long as you have some and you can walk through the door without falling down. Do any of these schools have a placement program? If so, can they provide names and numbers to the employers? You can then contact them and see if they were satisfied with the level of training of the schools graduates.

You must always remember that it is your right and responsibility to learn. Don’t be shy. Arrive early and be prepared for class. In a class room setting make sure you sit in the front of the class. In a workshop setting make sure you are seated or standing as close to the instructor as possible. You do not want to miss hearing any word or miss any nuance of instruction. Ask questions! Do not hesitate an asking any question or questions to insure that you have a full understanding of what is being taught at the moment. Don’t stop until you are satisfied that you do understand. Don’t ever be embarrassed if you don’t know a fact or don’t have a skill. Your job is to learn and it is your right to make them teach you. Remember that these schools can’t teach you everything. What they give you is a greater depth of understanding of the subject and a foundation that you can grow from.

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse so I will shut up now.

Best Wishes,

Philip

_________________
aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

Well so far, I've got some pretty good ideas.. many that I hadn't thought of before. ^^;; Thanks, guys. I'm gonna keep doing some more research. I've still got a bit before I can afford it anyway so I guess it gives me more time to look into things. I particularly like the idea of actually calling employers. =)

David Collins mentioned Red Wing. To be a little more specific, he means the string instrument construction and repair programs at Southeast Technical College in Red Wing, MN (http://www.southeastmn.edu/). If you haven't considered it, I recommend you have a look at it. It's an academic-year program at a pretty reasonable price.

_________________
John Cavanaugh
Saint Paul, MN
"What could possibly go wrong?"

Redwing is a good school. Two of the guys in our shop went there and they have great things to say about it. Plus they are both very skilled craftsmen. One guy in our shop went to roberto venn. He does not have the greatest things to say about it. That said I think whatever you put into it is what you'll get out. However if your only considering gallops or RV I'd recommend Gallop.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Michael,
I studied with our own Sylvan Wells. He puts on a class that runs a couple of weeks where you build an acoustic guitar complete (in the white). The shorter course is considerably less expensive and it shaves years from your lutherie leaning curve. I would suggest checking his course out. I was not in a position either personally or financially to attend long term but didn't want to do the 3-4 day repair course thing either and found this course to be a perfect fit for me.

Kahle

A couple of years ago a kid named Jeff Shermer spent the summer working evenings in my shop while working a local day job. He had just finished the Red Wing course. I was impressed with his knowledge and learned a bunch of stuff from him. I think he's working as a repair person at a shop in Madison Wisc. now. Definitely give the Red Wing course a good look.
Terry

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

You might drop an email to Mike Baranik (his website is http://www.baranikguitars.com/). He's a grad from Roberto-Venn and quite successful as a builder.
Also, try getting ahold of Jeremy Nellist at http://www.rosevilleguitarworks.com. He went there around the "turn of the century", then worked as a repair tech in the Sacramento area before starting his own repair business a couple years back.
Tell them I referred you...I don't think they'll mind answering some questions.

_________________
Hank Mauel

Why not learn on your own? 20k buys every tool you'll need, and enough high quality material inventory to last a couple years.....

Well, I figured that I figured that completing some sort of training program or school would give me a better chance at finding a good job or apprenticeship. I also figured having someone to help guide me and learning from their experience would help speed up my development as a luthier. Of course if this is not the case, my money would be much better invested in tools and materials which is why I also wanted to know what employers in the industry were looking for in their employees. I also have absolutely no previous experience with woodworking and my experience with power tools so far has been limited to using a power drill on occasion. So yeah... I guess I figured a school would probably be my best route to pursuing a career in lutherie.

Grumpy makes an excellent point that you can learn this stuff for yourself if you are that kind of learner. However, there are several styles of learning. Some people learn best by reading everything they can on a subject. Other's get their information best by listening to others speak on the subject. Some learn well in a class room setting. Yet other's need to attach themselves to a single teacher and learn to do things their way and some, like me and apparently Grumpy, need to figure things completely out by themselves through self directed study. Any of these paths can lead to the destination if it is the right path for you.

Micheal, Where do you live? There are several luthier groups around the country and every one of them is eager for new members and previous experience is not required. Our local group, New England Luthiers, has a cross section of luthiers with experience from zero to hundreds instruments.

Some of our members are graduates of the luthierie schools and they seem to know their stuff pretty well. Don't be afraid to call the schools and talk to the instructors there. They are ones offering the product and you are the customer. Go with the one who gives you the best vib.

If you're simply looking for a job in a guitar factory, just apply for one. The jobs there are task specific for the most part, and no previous experience is needed for the most part. There are precious few actual 'luthiers' in factories. And one man shops rarely take-on apprentices or paid help.

Well I'm not simply looking to be on an assembly line in a factory.. I don't think it'd make sense to spend any money if that was what I was ultimately aiming to do. Eventually I would like to open my own shop, but the general consensus seems to be that one should spend some time working in another shop and gaining experience before doing so. Frankly, you're making it sound like a hopeless and/or somewhat pointless endeavor to try to be a professional luthier... Are you saying that going to a school is a waste of time and money? If so, how would you suggest that I go about this? I'm sure everyone at one point or another has to start somewhere. If not a school or training program, then what would be the best place to start? I think it wouldn't make much sense to tell a person with no previous experience with woodworking or the tools associated with it to buy tools and materials, go to a room, and figure it out on their own. Yes, I know resources are available all over to help one teach himself, but I would think it'd still be better to have someone experienced teach you... but then again, that's just my logic...

Please keep in mind that I'm going to be depending on this to pay the bills... So whether I'm starting out doing setups and repairs or something, I need to be making money while also furthering myself...

Also, for Mike Mahar, I live in New York City.

Hi Michael,
I think I will have time on the 29th for you to come by my shop. If paying bills is a primary
concern I would stress the repair aspect of the business. Bryan Gallops repair weekend
may be a good place to start. Dan Erlewine has mentioned that he offers a weekend
program every now and then. There would be no way to go wrong with these two.
As for building it will be problematic in NYC unless you have a pretty big place with
adequate ventilation and a good dust removal system. These are rarely included in
NYC apartments Anyway I chose repairs by accident many years ago and
you can make a very decent living doing this in a good sized city once your reputation
gets out there. It will be slow though. I have been doing this since the mid 80's part time
and full time since the mid 90's. Now I have more business than I can handle and often
find myself referring stuff to other people. This took a long time though! If I were building
I think in NYC I would have starved a long time ago. I could lose about 25 lbs though
so maybe I will build an OM style
Hope this helps, Evan

_________________
http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

Sergei's course is more about taking an "adventure" by building a guitar alongside his family. It's not about teaching you a variety of tonewoods, bracing patterns, construction methods, etc. This is the way he does it, and this is the way you'll do it. Other experienced luthiers I've talked to about it, usually take away a number of construction tricks and not much insight into what makes a great-sounding guitar. Although, I've yet to hear a bad one...

People like me came out of it saying, "Cool! I made a guitar... that I can actually play."

Just don't ask me to make you one.

Yeah.. I've definitely been weighing repairs vs. building and it seems repairs and maintenance is probably the more practical way to go at least to get myself settled initially. At any rate, thanks for making some time, Evan. I'll be sure to visit you. ^^

Hi Michael,
You are welcome to come by my shop if you are in the area.
I live in Brewster NY about an hour north of NYC.
I don't do this for a living,but have been building for thirty years-I have many guitars in different phases of construction you might find interesting.I also have a bunch of wood laying around.
Just shoot me an email if you are interested- brad@goodmanguitars.com
Regards,
Brad

When you come out of any of these schools, you will then be prepared to be a decent apprentice. You will not be ready to hang out a shingle and work for yourself. Figure on another three to five years working your way up through a production environment or under the guidance of a good repair tech. You have to think of this as being very much like going to college...at least a four year commitment to learning this craft. Then there's grad school!

I guest teach at RV a couple of times a year, and I love it down there. But the advice that has been given here about it being up to you to make the most of the time is absolutely true. Slackers aren't going to get much out of any school, but if you really grab for the knowledge, you'll get it.

Hey Michael

I think you're asking some really good questions. Education can be expensive. If you need to, $20,000 in school loans will run you $200 a month tops for ten years, and less for 20.

Have you been able to get any tool to wood experience yet? If you can find your way to $1000, try out John Mayes' complete DVD set and work through a guitar kit. I'd be happy to radius some brace blanks for you so that you can glue up a top and back to voice. You'll learn a lot of how's and why's from what John has put together. You can take it to Evan for the setup.