Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and the world of guitar building.
I've been thinking about getting an lmi kit, but after some research i've gotten more and more accustomed to the thought of a scratch build, probably not the best idea for a beginner, but if all else fails it will be a great learning experience, more so than a kit would i suppose.

I'm quite competent wit woodworking, but i'm sure the sonics of the stuff will be a challenge,i've had 'cabinet making' as a hobby for as long as i remember and have worked as a carpenter for the past 7 yrs(I'm 26yo).

I'm still in a researching stage, hopefully i'll get started before the end of the year(need to get some $$ saved up too).
i have the 'bible'(cumpianos book) on order from amazon. any other recommendations for books, that deal with the theory of things how's and why's of different techniques?

One thing i've been wondering is, why is it not more customary to use a tailpiece vs stringing through bridge and why sideport is not more common vs traditional soundhole? seems to me that it would make sense to releive all the stress and weight you can from the soundboard.

I'm exclusively a fingerstyle player, and i've thought about an OM size body,with a tailpiece and soundport on the side,and an engelman/walnut combo. scale and frets are still undecided.


Frank

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Frank

Hi and welcome to the forum! Others with more experience will chime in soon, but I think that there is a real value in building from a kit for the first guitar. Building from a kit will give you the opportunity to concentrate on the guitar and not things like the sides cracking or scorching in the bender.

It also give you more time to aquire specialized tools that are needed for scratch building as not all of them have their counterparts in other areas of woodworking. I started with a kit and in hindsight I can say that I'm really glad that I did. LMII offers several levels of 'service' and John Hall at Blues Creek Guitars is also a really good resource as he can pull together just about anything you can imagine!

The best of luck to you on beginning this journey -- and before I forget, Kinkead's book 'Build Your Own Acoustic Guitar' I found to be helpful because of the myriad of pictures available al all stages of building.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

A word of caution, kit building leads to guitar building school, which leads to a workshop full of very expensive tools and shelves full of beautiful woods..... I recommend it very highly! Get used to peeing glue off of your hands. As far as using a floating bridge and tailpiece on a traditionally braced acoustic guitar however, I'm not sure if that would produce the effect you want (although it may look cool). Traditional bracing systems are designed for a bridge that rocks back and forth with string vibration causing the top to vibrate. A floating bridge doesn't really do that. Hopefully others will expound upon this...
- Justin

I meant "peeling" glue off of your hands.....(I can't believe i said "peeing"....what you guys must think of me...)

Yuck........


Frank buddy welcome to the OLF.

Don't underestimate what can be learned from a kit regardless of how good one's woodworking chops are. Although folks do produce some great first guitars from scratch a decent kit will help ensure your success as well by the support offered. Of course we are here for that also.....

Great to have you here.

What do you mean?

I pee it off my hands all the time???!


<GRIN>

Seriously, there is no shame in building a "KIT" either serviced supplies from LMI or from Stew Mac or Martin. Also check out sellers ASAA and Tippie53 on Ebay...I know them both and they are an excellent source of kits.
Building a guitar from scratch can be risky in that machining some of the parts can be dangerous to your hands if you are not set up and experienced to do it, and you have outscaled regular woodworking equipment. I always encourage folks to build a kit first, before they proceed on.
There is plenty to learn from building a kit for the first time out.

I also would recommend a kit for the first build and John Hall at Blues Creek would be a great source. Start with something not too expensive and enjoy the build. No matter how it turns out you will learn a lot and have no problem giving it away. This process has so may steps you are not likely to get them all right the first time. An LMI kit offers you a wide selection of materials and services. You can choose what you want to do and what you would like done for you. My first was a Stew-Mac kit. Their strength is low cost of tools. The inside cardboard mold works pretty well but I bet the OLF members will recommend buying a mold. Blues Creek has the largest selection.

If you live anywhere close to Pennsylvania you should try to attend the open house at Blues Creek on the first Saturday in May.

Good luck - go slow - ask questions!

Steve Brown

Hi,

So when you say "machining some of the parts can be dangerous to you hands", what parts are we talking about? I'm asking as a newbie. Also even if you build a kit first and those parts that needs to be machined are included, would you not have to machine those parts on second guitar anyways?
So I'm not clear on why kit would better help machine parts.
Thank you for helping me understand.

David

OK, I think kits are a great way to go, but, it also depends on the individual. What do you want? Total immersion is the choice I made for my first build. I wanted to see what was involved. I wanted to know the problems faced with all of the processes. I chose to use, primarily, hand tools to do my work, and used power tools where it made sense from an accuracy standpoint, and where I failed miserably with hand tools. I kind of liked the process. Working sides down with planes and scrapers is somewhat therapeutic. If you want to make mistakes, and learn to fix them, there is nothing like a scratch build to give you experience in that. Don't underestimate the amount of fun you can have with a scratch build. That said, there are kits that would pretty much allow you those same experiences. The difference is that I have less than $200 in the materials in my first guitar. I did that by finding a couple of deals on wood that I liked(Thank you, Bob @ RC Tonewoods! ), and it also includes dumping the first top I was going to use, and using a more expensive German Spruce top.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Wow, a lot of activity on this forum...

I in no way look down on kit builders, if i came across like that.
I know it will be challenging even with serviced kits.
It's just that i for some reason like to be a part of the entire process, i can underatand why you advise me to build a kit first.
I haven't made up my mind yet, either way in the end hopefully i'll be able to turn out a playable guitar.

as far as the bridge and soundport goes i really got inspired from seeing a build in progress over at the agf forum of a batson guitar http://www.batsonguitars.com/.

Any thoughts?

btw, used to peeing of glue

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Frank

And you guys wonder why I hate CA.......

hesh

Frank, welcome to the OLF dude

I have nothing new to add as you've been given good advise already.

There is one OLF member who is from Norway, Arnt Rian you might PM him, maybe you guys live close enough you can have a visit.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

A kit from LMI is about the same as scratch build. Your not gonna cut your own tops from trees, or anything else for the most part. If you know what your doing, you can "scratchbuild" a guitar for about half price of a kit, but you have to get 'into' it first.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

My first build was from scratch, but I did buy a precarved neck and head block that already had the bolt on inserts. This actually caused more problems for me because I had to worry about getting the block glued down in the right place and I was worried sick about this. The 2nd one was also a scratch build and I made my own neck and block, and it was much easier I thought. However, I had the help of local guitar builders during the difficult parts. Like setting the neck angle, binding, and finishing. I had no woodworking experience at all, and only knew very little about wood. I think the only thing that helped me was my determination and willingness to learn as much as I could. I visited every forum, and read every book on the subject about 4 months before getting started. My 1st build still sounds great. So I know it can be done. However, if you want to finish quickly, and feel a sense of accomplishment without buying all the tools needed, then get a preserviced kit. Things that you will need if you build from scratch are the bending iron, or bending mold/heating blanket(very expensive if you are building just one guitar, about $400), special fret slotting blade to cut fret slots, etc. You will already have a huge expense in fretting tools, so no need to pile on early in the process.

I also recommend the Kincade book, it is one of my favorites. But if you want to watch a guitar come together in a slide show/audio format, get the Robert O'Brien DVD from LMI. It will take you through the whole process of building an OM. If you buy the scratch kit from LMI, it comes with the kit.
Good luck!

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

Well, I'm thinking of cutting things such as neck and end blocks, bridges, kerfed linings, bracing and a lot of the other small parts on a guitar mostly done on the table saw.
It sounds like you are an experienced and skilled woodworker so, if that is the case, you know how to do this safely.
I've found that lots of folks who get interested in making a guitar are players first and in their case I think starting with a kit is excellent insurance against injury.
Todd, I don't think the machinery issue applies to the experienced but I think it is significant when someone with only a small amount of skill attempts to make some of the small parts we all know take caution and knowledge to do safely.

Well there's worse ways!! You could burn it off!

Then we would worry about you!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

For what it’s worth here’s my take. Others will obviously differ.
As with most of life’s endeavors, we usually have a rather simplistic concept of any new subculture we plan to enter. We dive in full of confidence only to find it goes a lot deeper and is more complicated than we ever imagined.
Going from simple to complex is the standard, time proven formula for any technical training program. Guitar building is no different.
To me starting with a kit is a no brainer, especially if you do not have access to a good teacher. Believe me, you will still be greatly challenged and you will learn an enormous amount about what actually goes into building a guitar. It’ll be an eye opener.
If you wind up taking a building course later (which is a very good idea) you’ll get a lot more out of it if you go in having done a few kits. At least it was true in my case.
Good luck
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

My first build was a scratch build and it went just fine. Perhaps if I'd started with kits I'd recommend them too, but I just felt like I'd be missing half the experience I was looking for that way. I knew I'd eventually want to build from scratch anyway, so I figured there's not much to gain by doing a kit first.

A friend of mine is going back and forth on the scratch/kit decision for his first and I've told him either way, he's gonna have a blast, but if he knows he wants to eventually do it all, there's no time like the present.

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-Clint Beacock

Sorry that I didn't notice that your posting is from Norway. Two comments - Norway is the most beautiful place that I have even seen- We had an exchange student from Arndal and had the pleasure of visiting her family after she went home. We still consider her our third daughter.

Back to topic - Norway Spruce! Has anyone tried it?

for bending and such i had thought of using a steam box i made for other projects involving bending wood.would that be a bad idea, moisture issues?

norwegian spruce, probably been used in a pinch, have a hard finding suppliers of tonewood in these parts, so i guess its not something we're famous for...

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Frank

Since sides are so thin a steam box usually isn't a good idea for a couple of reasons. One is that the sides cool so quickly. Another is that too much water or steam can cause cupping or other types of warping. If you were going to make a form to put the sides in after they came out of the steam box, then you might as well build a Fox style bender with light bulbs or a heating blanket. Bending on a hot pipe is fun, but it takes some practice to bend evenly and avoid scorching.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Hei Frank,
du har fått en PM!

Yes, Norway spruce as you Americans call it (common spruce, or "gran" to us, epicéa commun in France, gemeinefichte in Germany, and jel europeiskaya in Russia) is indeed picea abies; it is the same species that grows all over northern and eastern Europe, the Alps and much of eastern Russia.

Here is a pet peeve of mine: I think it is funny that you guys call it Norway spruce since it is a relative newcomer here, at least if you don't count the period before the Ice Age that ended about 10 000 years ago in these parts. That wiped out the original range of the species which included most of Europe, all the way from here down to Greece. It survived in an area which included the southern slopes of the Alps, and was since been reintroduced to many of the same areas both by natural spreading and by planting. It is now the most common tree here, but its only been that way for a few hundred years; all surviving buildings from the middle ages in this country (including the Stave Churches, various "lofts") are pine (Pinus sylvestris).

The variety that grows up here is what has been used as soundboard material for our traditional stringed instruments (hardingfele, langeleik etc), so it is not only used "in a pinch", it is the wood of choice for these instruments. I'm convinced that it would work wonderfully for guitars, IF you can find the right stuff. Finding quartered, clear pieces that are large enough for two piece guitar tops is, as Frank has found out difficult, since nobody is cutting it for that purpose in Norway (if they are, they are not selling it to the rest of us, anyways). There are many old growth stands with trees that are both old and big enough for it, but even top quality European spruce from the Alps is relatively inexpensive and very easy to order over the wires, so... I have used old, local spruce for bracing in many instruments, I built one mandolin with only local woods some years back and I'm making another one like that now. The quality of pieces vary a lot, but when it's good its good...

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Oh, I forgot: I suspect it is called "Norway spruce" in English speaking countries because we exported so much of it over the years. One of places we have sold a lot to was England (or the king of Denmark sold it for us and took the money, but that is another story), and that name went across the Atlantic with their language. Those Brits really liked it too; “isn’t it good, Norwegian wood” (sorry John, wherever you are).

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Frank , I built a guitar in a " crash course " one week with a master, after doing so I was realy glad I had bought a kit ( with prebent sides, serviced top )previously , to build on my own after returning home , there is a large amount of specialized tools required to do a nice job, many you can make , many you cannot ( unless your a tool and die man ). Personaly it would have been over whelming for me to gather everything for a scratch build . having all the raw materials gave me a chance to get started building , while rounding up all the tool s neccessary , to build one from scratch . now I have the rim top and back ready for assembly , it has been six monthes , working part time at it when I have spare time and energy .. I was able to " shop" for some of the items I didnt need on this build . some of the braces I didnt like , and made replicas from what i thought was a better choice of materials . there is still a huge amount of things to consider , even building a kit ! Jody