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| Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16761 |
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| Author: | D Stewart [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
Alot of builder seem to notch only the kerfed lining for the tapered ends of the x-braces. My question is why not go right into the side as well since the binding will cover that anyway. Seems easier to leave the brace ends a little longer and let them right through the sides. I assume there is a reason not to do the "easy way", but I am to dense to see why. Any help?  Thanks.Donovan |
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| Author: | stan thomison [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
I do notch the lining and side and the two shops I worked at do also. Main thing is not go to deep in the side so binding can't cover it. Good way to get a problem and if work for someone, a stern way to get a why the %&%you do that for. I know!! I/we used a piece of binding to determine the thickness of the brace end (tucked part). We had/have a method of making the ends at a set thickness, using a beltsander and table rig. We then set or checked the dremel bit to make sure it was at proper for the depth the notch to be cut at. I use about .060 to .070 as the desired depth. If remember right (that is harder every day) that was same as first shop and makes sure can use with any binding/purfeling scheme. Others may go deeper or less so, just seemed good depth. Some don't tuck at all or just upper legs of X. That I guess would be a whole different discussion. Most of time for awhile used a small kerf/blitz saw or knife to score the cut to keep chipping at a min. At first shop not using the saw or knife was a sort of graduation of your getting there. |
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| Author: | BruceHerrmann [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
I've had good success running the bracing through the kerfing and right through the side. Never had a problem with binding not completely covering it and always felt I got a bit more secure brace since the side was involved as well. Works well for me. I do create consistent bracing dimensions at the end of the taper so I know what they will look like once glue up and routed for binding. Best Bruce |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
For years I notched linings and sides. Mostly as a method of properly locating the top. but for over 2 years now I feather the bracing to zero at the linings. i have heard rumors of those that notch through the side having issues of swelling of the brace pushing the binding out. But I never have seen this happen. |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
I like to have my ledge for the binding and purfling cut completely into the side all the way around the guitar so I cut through the kerfed linings only and stop at the side. I've seen builders do both with equal success, but time can't be an issue since cutting those inlet recesses takes a grand total of about 90 seconds for me. I can't imagine anyone who's going right one through the side taking much less than that if less time at all. Either way will work fine. It ends up being a matter of personal preference. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | D Stewart [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
Thanks for the helpful input. I prefer to go through the sides like Bruce for the same reason, but when I see others stop and just pocket out the lining, I had to wonder. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Donovan |
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| Author: | Tom Morici [ Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
When I notch the linings for brace ends, I stop shy of the sides, about a 1/32" or so. I view it as a cushion for the brace end. Linings are normaly softer wood than the side, easier to compress with movement. I also fit my brace ends a 1/32" or so short in the notch. The problem of the brace end pushing out the binding is do to the shrinking of the top or the back. The amount a brace can change in length is less then 1%. It can take 20yrs or more for this to happen. If the brace end touchs the binding it will cause a problem, some time down the road. It is rare but I have seen it before. At least this is how I see it. Hope this helps. |
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| Author: | BruceHerrmann [ Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
I do agree that it's personal preference, we probably all get good results either way if we take care to match up the bracing with the linings and notch correctly. As was mentioned, one of the main reasons I do it is that I don't used dowels or pins to locate the top so this notching through the linings gives me a more positive feel that I've got the top (or back) oriented the way I had intended. Lots of good ways to get the same results, probably just as many wrong ways unfortunately. I've found a few of those as well  Best Bruce |
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| Author: | Jody [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
one reason not notching into the side would be to give yourself the option of not binding at all, plus if your going to route away the brace end anyways , when you cut the binding channel, why cut through the side to istall the brace ? Jody |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
I notch my sides exactly as Tom does and for the same reasons. This means that I notch the kerfed linings and not the sides. I will add that on a very early guitar I had done as instructed and notched through the sides as well. When routing the binding channels and making the initial climb cuts the router bit hit the upper transverse brace that was through the sides and tore out a piece of the brace and the top........... Since then I notch the kerfed linings only and leave a slight space for expansion. |
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| Author: | Glenn LaSalle [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
I have been following this thread closely, as I am done with the rims on my first, and am starting the back. Hesh, what tool do you use to just notch out the linings? After reading through the thread, i think this is how I will do my first. Thanks! Glenn |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
Glenn buddy I use a Dremel mounted in a Stew-Mac router base with a Stew-Mac spiral down-cut bit. The area to be removed is colored with a pencil and the router base is held on top of the kerfed linings. I set the bit depth for what every my brace end height is. I use .010 but you can use less or more. At first when I learned that this was how it was done, Lance told me, the idea of balancing a router base on the kerfed linings sounded kind of scary but it's not in reality and goes fine. Just be sure to shine some bright light on your work and if you are over 50 wear magnifiers.......*&*^%$^&  Routing the pockets so that the brace fits perfectly is not difficult and makes your work look much nicer when someone looks inside the guitar. |
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| Author: | Glenn LaSalle [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
Thanks Hesh! I don't have a dremel, but I do have a PC 310. Do you think that will work as well? or would I be better off doing "by hand"? Thx! Glenn |
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| Author: | Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
glasalle wrote: Thanks Hesh! would I be better off doing "by hand"? yeh, couldn't you just use a razor blade and a chisel? |
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| Author: | Hesh off-line [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
Sure this can be done by hand easy enough too. But..... I have found that routing the pockets out with a spiral down-cut bit is neater and more uniform in depth then I have the chops to do by hand. Also, remember too that we are dealing with kerfed linings here and the kerfs really like to draw chisels into the voids and your pockets can end up being over sized. But yes certainly it can be done by hand as probably all things in guitar building can. |
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| Author: | Jody [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
another thing I want to say is controlling your your router bit works best in one direction, that is to say clock wise or counter clockwise , ( not sure because its been awhile since I have done this ) I am sure someone that builds more guiatars than I can tell you which . but if you go in the wrong direction the bit will go ( or jump )where it wants and you may end up with a hole through your side very easily (actualy before you know it !)anyways ! Jody |
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| Author: | Jody [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Notching for x-brace in lining - sides too? |
above I dont mean they way the bit turns but they way you move the router with your hands as you are cutting . i would definalty make a few practice runs on scrap before i started cutting the channel on my project for sure, to get the feel of the action of the router ! using the small bits have a different feel than larger router bits, especialy when "free" cutting with no bearing guide . jody |
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