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Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
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Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
I'm just binding a new build, fairly fancy with lots of purfling and Ivoroid binding. I've used Duco cement for Ivoroid plastics for years with no problems. In one spot, I didn't get the purfling on the sides (just above the binding) fully into the routed channel (not the fault of the cement, the operator's fault, we call it Iatrogenic in Dentistry :( ). It's a style 45 guitar in case you hadn't guessed. So, has anybody ever had any luck splicing in a piece of Ivoroid binding and having the seams not show? I know it's probably not possible but before I rip off all the binding on the side and start over, I thought I'd check. As you know if you have bound a style 45, it can be a pain to get all the strips of binding, purfling and teflon lined up just right. Everything else is perfect, just that one [headinwall] spot.
Thanks

Bruce
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Bruce,

I'm afraid the answer to your question is no, but you might try this: Dip a small brush in acetone and lightly brush it over the defect. The acetone will melt the ivoroid and you might be able to blend the pieces together. I've done this on repairs, but have never been able to acheive a flawless joint, but then I'm very picky. On a new style 45 guitar, I'd just do it over. It won't take that long and you'll be much happier IMHO.

One thing that might help on future guitars is to do the purfling and binding separate from each other. I started doing this about three years ago and now wonder why I ever did it any other way. I always felt like I was wrestling with a gang of alley cats when I tried to do everything at once. Just my $.02.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Jimmy, I'm sure that's good advice on both accounts. I just thought I'd see what others have done. I may try the acetone method just to know what I might be able to do on future repairs but have a feeling the whole side will need to be redone.
It really is a bundle of snakes with all that material. As I was doing it I kept thinking of ways to do just the purfling, only problem seems to be keeping the adhesive out of the channel for the purfling. Maybe you really cant and just have to clean out the glue before finishing with the binding itself. I thought about using small thumtacks to keep the binding in place, more like the stick-pins people use for maps. That might work...
Thanks for the ideas.

Bruce
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Depends on the gap. How about a photo? Also, what kind of ivoroid--grained or solid?

I've had some luck filling with acetone-melted ivoroid paste and getting a seam that can't be noticed. It will shrink as it cures, so you may have to do it a few times.

Like Jimmy, I purfle and bind separately in most cases and get my best results that way. I've seen it stated (Benedetto) that one must do it all at once. Not so.
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
It's grained and I'll post a photo when I get home. It's a section about an inch long, and, of course, its on the bass side, looking right at you when you play the guitar so it's pretty visible.
Just bugs me because I thought I had everything falling pretty well into place. I guess one
bad seam is not too bad given the amount of edges involved. Still, it's not something you want to see....

Bruce
Author:  Cal Maier [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Bruce,

If it bugs you, redo it.

It's probably not much more time and effort that trying to repair it.

Cal
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Yea, I think at this point redoing it is the only way to go. I may use it as a learning experiment on repairs, just to see what can be done by using the acetone softening method, realizing that
a replacement of that side binding will probably be the only real fix. It's not that big of a project, I just thought I'd be sure I wasn't missing something that would work as a fix....
Thanks
Author:  Guest [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
So, here are some photos. First, I just removed the binding in the area of the gap, here's how it looks. I'm no
photographer but I think you can get an idea of my problem:
[img]www.redshift.com/~gibson/bindinggapbefore.jpg[/img]

At that point I decided to glue the purfling up into the proper place and keep it in place with stick pins. I then decided I might as well replace the entire side of binding, so here is the guitar with all binding on that side removed and the purfling
setting up. Will replace the binding later and that should solve that one. Thanks for all the good advice.

[img]www.redshift.com/~gibson/purflingrepair1.jpg[/img]
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Lets try those photos again:
Author:  Guest [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Having a hard time editing this post, I'll try again later. The images are up, you can cut and paste to see them...
Author:  David LaPlante [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Bruce, I've done it with the plain white Boltaron and Ivoroid. Cut out your section with a razor saw (not a knife) and fit the new one ever so slightly long. Apply a small glob of cement to all the cut ends and let it soften the material for a minute or so, then glue it in and tape tight. The melted ends should fuse together. Wait till it is good and hard before you scrape and if you encounter any "snottiness" leave off and wait a day or two for it to harden up. If you are not happy with the splice you can still re-do.
I've always done 45 purflings and binding silmutaneously........it takes some practice..........

Best!
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
Thanks David, good advise as always. I was surprised and glad to find how well the Duco had bonded the Ivoroid to the
wood and surrounding purfling. It also surprised me that after 2 plus days, I would have to say it was not completely set.
I'm going to give that cement a bit more time in the future. I wonder if the tape I use provides such an oxygen depleted
environment that the cement set up is inhibited. It does seem that once that tape is removed, there is a more rapid change
in the texture of the excess cement. Is the stuff sold by Stew-mac etc. better??
Best
Bruce
Author:  David Collins [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
As to cement choices, Duco is slow slow slow. I used Weld-On 16 in favor of Duco cement, with a much shorter cure time but a shorter working time to go with.

I haven't built it the last 10 years so haven't had the chance to try it much, but learned form Steve McCreary in that time that Collings uses a PolyVinyl Alcohol glue (I believe Roo glue was the brand they used). It's wonderful stuff as it cleans with water when wet and alcohol after drying. It's usually sold I believe as a melamine adhesive, intended for gluing counter top plastic veneers to their wood bases so it's made specifically for porous to non-porous joints. It hasn't proved too useful in repairs in my experience, but perhaps someone else here has used it for new builds and could comment on it. Repairs don't typically have the perfectly fresh surfaces on binding joints, so I still find hide and CA glues to work better in repairs.

There are plenty of tricks with binding, from stretching to melting seams. The trick that I really think would be easiest here though would be to not think about it too much. It was worth asking, but there's no magic quick-fix that I know of. Grab the trimmer, cut it off, and rebind it. Ten dollar loss in materials, half hour's work, and it's done right. Even if it took you two hours to do, that would probably be several hours less than it would take to think about it, noodle around trying to fix it, and still probably see it when it's done. It will be easier and you will be happier if you just trim it off and start fresh.
Author:  Tim L [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
I'm fairly new at this and there are certainly more people on this forum that know more than I, but the first thing that hits me about the gap is that if you were to add, or melt in more ivoroid the purfling would lose its' continuity. The bottom line would be noticeably thicker in the spot with the gap. To me that would look as bad as the gap. The wood looks fairly dark, what would the difference be between adding epoxy/wood dust to the gap rather than filling with ivoroid?

My first 2 guitars were built with ivoroid binding and for gap filling I had a small container that I melted small chips of the binding in acetone (it took a while). It worked pretty good for filling the gaps as long as everything was clean. If the binding was in any way discolored the fill was noticeable. For the most part I doubt if I could find most the fills today.

Tim
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid binding repair, can it be done??
I completely agree that there are lots of tricks to get this type of binding to meld into adjacent binding and make it work quite well. In this case, it came down to me realizing that the simple removal of the binding on the affected side, repair of the purfling and applying new ivoroid binding was the simplest and best course of action. At this stage in the build, I really had no better choice. Further along, I might have looked at some other alternatives. The one I chose seemed to work best for me and I now have all the new binding in place, waiting for the slow Duco to do it's thing. Interested in the other choices mentioned but I think that if you realize that you have to give Duco some time, most often you'll be ok with it.
Thanks again for the good advice from all. I appreciate it.

Bruce
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