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New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
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Author:  Hesh [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
I bought a new house and will be moving in the next 60 days or so and I wanted to ask my OLF pals if you folks would help me please with the planning of the new shop.

A good part of the reason for the move is so that I could build a proper shop, much larger than the 11 X 11.5' shop that I have now. I am thinking that I would like the shop to be approx 20 X 30' with an outer office for my desk, computer, sound system, TV and of course Sony the wonder dog......

The new house is brand new and has a large basement that I want to use. The basement is very dry and the hygrometer that I left there is reading 58% in the rainy season here in Michigan. I plan on using dehumidifiers to drop the eventually environmentally contained shop the rest of the way to around 45% and plumbing the dehumidifier through a grommet into the sump pump cover. There are two windows, one with a screwy ladder system for egress. Since I have the entire basement to use my thinking is that the natural light would be a bonus if I position my benches properly.

Anyway where I am stumped is that I am absolutely clueless about things like electrical (there are no outlets in the basement currently) and building walls etc. I have been surfing the web and have a pretty good idea how to do the walls against the concrete for moisture barriers and to make the place more comfortable. A drop ceiling with some nice lighting is in the plan too.

So where I would ask for assistance is with the electrical. I am envisioning two additional circuits - one for the shop with a higher amperage rating for my power tools and the second circuit for the rest of the basement, outside the shop and the office.

I am at the point of asking the contractor to do this for me (the electrical) but wanted to know how does one have electrical service done when the plan is to build the walls later? Could the electrical be run through the rafters with flexible conduit that can be dropped down later and the recepticals then mounted to the wall studs that are not there yet?

In addition, what amperage should I be shooting for for the shop circuit? Also, I know what ground fault circuits are but that is the extent of my knowledge, do I need this in a shop?

And lastly, looking at the pics below where would you position the shop and why. And...... really lastly what good ideas for a clean slate shop do you have in your shops that you would suggest to me to help me build a great shop.

Sorry for all the questions - I have never done any construction before and feel like an idiot and also a little concerned about being at the mercy of a contractor when I know nothing......

Many thanks!!

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Author:  David Collins [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hey Hesh, looks like it's working out well so far. Man you move fast.

I would plan on new tools, new toys, and try to anticipate growth. I would go with at least 4 circuits. For a small shop I would say two 110 lines will handle all you're likely to need for quite some time. One would probably be fine for a one person shop, but if you're going to run a line down each wall, and have opens slots in the box, you might as well divide them now rather than finding you'll have to do it later. Then your separate 110 line for your office, and as long as the contractor is in there now I would say you might as well have him drop in a 220 outlet or two. Never know when you may decide get a decent compressor, dust collector, table saw, tanning bed, you know.


Have fun with it, and let me know if you need any help.
Author:  Chansen [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
If you are doing the framing and drywall make sure to use treated lumber (usually PT #2) anywhere it is in contact with concrete walls or floor. If framing in the perimeter walls, one trick to use less treated wood is to leave 1" of airspace between the wall and the concrete - you'll have to tie it into the wall with "L" brackets but you will only need to use the treated lumber on the floor. As far as the electrical goes - I would think a few dedicated 20 or 30 amp breakers and 12 and 10 gauge wire (respectively) would be more than enough, but others who use the big toys may require even more. You probably are not going to want to run the electrical before the walls are up. If you need instant power while doing the construction you could run some temporary lines. Hope that helps - I'm not an expert but I've done a fair share of this stuff (hopefully right :) )

Good luck and congrats on the new pad!
Author:  bangay [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hesh:

I'm sure many of us are envious of the 'carte blanche' opportunity you have in your new place. Now THIS is what I call a rec room!

With respect to your electrical work, may I suggest that you wire up split receptacles like you probably have in your kitchen? This will allow you to plug in two tools to the same outlet but they'll be on different circuits. I've done essentially the same thing in my basement by alternating receptacles around the walls on two separate circuits. You may someday use a machine with a fairly big draw together with a dust collector, say.

Another suggestion I have is to mount the receptables above bench height instead of the standard closer to the floor. Alternatively, if you do line some of the walls with bench height surfaces, you can bring power out to the front of the surface.

There are systems for safely dropping power from the ceiling but I don't know if they would be approved for residential use. An electrician could help you decide this.

Finally, if you have the headroom (after accounting for the dropped ceiling), maybe a foot-friendly raised floor could allow you to channel power into the middle of the shop for floor-level access. There are some really good workspace flooring materials available these days. Again, I'd see an electrician for this one.

Love to see the photos when you're done. Good luck.

Ted
Author:  jmanter [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Congratulations Hesh! One little trick I would advise is to look at what you have for tools and what you want. Then use masking tape to lay out the footprints on the floor. You can then plan your electrical and dust collection to support your tool layout rather than trying to fit tools in later. I also highly recommend the workbench with a roof that doubles as a go bar deck now that you have the room....
- Justin
Author:  Kirt Myers [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hi Hesh,

Great space there! The only thing I can add is if you split your recepticals, I think you can run a 220 line to the recepticals
and then split to 110v there. Then if you ever need 220 at that location, you can rewire the receptical. Better verify that
with your electrician though. (I am not a licensed electrician)

I always like some outlets in the ceiling too.

Here's to your new shop!
Author:  fryovanni [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hesh,
That space is very easy to ruff wire at this point. If you are sure you will use a drop tile ceiling throughout, it will be easy to wire at that point also. You should start with a layout of the space as you see it being used. If you have a pretty good idea where you will have larger equipment, you can route conduit to those areas, and place a J-box. This will allow you to pull the needed circuits as needed, and drop out of the J-box into walls or on the surface if you prefer (surface raceways would require protection, conduit. If you route through walls you can use NM(romex), as the wall provides protection. The great thing about drop tile ceilings is it provides that access, and lighting can be very flexable as well as modifications down the road. Be sure to look around at equipment you may intend to bring in your shop, so that provisions can be made.

If you are not comfortable with working in your electrical panel, or with codes. You may do well to have a contractor come in and wire the space. The difficulty will be very low (fast work), and the price should not be too bad. The main thing you need to do is have a good sense of what you will be using the space for, and get several quotes. I would look for a residential contractor, as commercial contractors will be higher generally for this type of work.

If you do not have walls built, and are comfortable ruffing in a few receptacles, and lights down the road. You certainly could have a contractor do the work to get you out to those J-boxes, pull wire in the conduits, terminate in the panel, and safe off and lable the wire in the J-boxes for you to extend down the road as walls are added.

As far as general purpose receptacles in an unfinished basement, NEC does require ground fault protection. Recptacles that are dedicated for a piece of equipment are not required to be GFCI protected. Look up NEC article 210.8(A) for information, and also look into local codes that may ammend this article in your neck of the woods. GFCI protection is great for safety, and as long as it does not pose tripping issues with the equipment it serves(things like refrigerators sometimes have problems) I would recommend you use it. I have run my drum sander, small joiner, routers and such with GFCI protection and have had no tripping issues. For larger equipment with dedicated 220 volt circuits, standard circuits with well connected equipment ground is what I use.

Peace,Rich
Author:  Chansen [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
fryovanni wrote:
As far as general purpose receptacles in an unfinished basement, NEC does require ground fault protection. Recptacles that are dedicated for a piece of equipment are not required to be GFCI protected. Look up NEC article 210.8(A) for information, and also look into local codes that may ammend this article in your neck of the woods. GFCI protection is great for safety, and as long as it does not pose tripping issues with the equipment it serves(things like refrigerators sometimes have problems) I would recommend you use it. I have run my drum sander, small joiner, routers and such with GFCI protection and have had no tripping issues.


I would think that the GFCI would constantly be thrown using these. Are you using standard GFCI outlets or a breaker with the GFCI integrated?

Hesh - He is correct that you will definitely want to check out your local code for these things.
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Having done the same thing in the last house may I suggest this. Your electrical system should be 200 amp service. If it is you can pull at least 60 amps to the shop in a rise panel . Then you wire your shop from there . This way you can kill the shop with one breaker at the box yet have the shop on its own box.
Look at your current tool requirement and possible future tools. You should have your electrician look at this for you so you don't tax your system or wire in something wrong. With the US requirements changing you may need to be inspected so you don't loose your house insurance.
john hall
blues creek guitars.
Author:  Brook Moore [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
It is easy enough to run wires to ceiling junction boxes in the vicinity of where you want to drop into future walls. However, consider framing the interior walls immediately. Wall space is valuable real estate in a shop, and the sooner you have it the better. You can leave the outer wall insulation and sheathing until you see if you really need it, or have time to do it, though of course it will be a pain to move your shop around to do this later. Any permanently exposed wiring on the walls should be in conduit, though electricians here will give better info on this.

In my shop, which is a large single open space, I wired it as follows:

1 20 amp circuit for overhead lights
2 20 amp circuits for 110v outlets, each one covering 2 walls. Each of these circuits supplied a 4-outlet box every 8 feet at a height of 4 feet.
2 20 amp 240v circuits, each one covering 2 walls. Each of these circuits supplied an outlet every 12 feet at a height of 18 inches.
1 30 amp 240v circuit that supplies table saw, planer, jointer. This wire drops in conduit down 4x4 posts near the machines. The posts also provide attachment for the dust collector drops.
1 20 amp 240v circuit for dust collector
1 circuit for heating system
1 30 amp 240v circuit for drum sander - may need to be upgraded to 50 amps if I go to a small wide-belt.
1 miscellaneous 110v circuit that has several ceiling outlets to run air filtration unit, smoke detectors, circulation fan, etc.

This may be overkill for a basement shop, but it is really nice to have lots of circuits. If you are going to wire off of a subpanel, 60 amps would be an adequate supply, but personally I would go higher to cover future expansion - you may decide you really need that wide-belt sander, and that will require a 30 amp dust collector, etc.

Brook
Author:  Anthony Lembo [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Congrats on the new home!

Depending on the room in your main box (looks like 200 amp service), it may be helpful to run the shop circuits off of a subpanel for easier access/expandability.

Enjoy the space!

Anthony

Edit: sheesh - you guys beat me to it.. :lol:
Author:  Bill Greene [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
I can't add much to what has been said. I've done pretty much exactly what you've described however, (on a much smaller scale however) but I did it similarly to what's been expressed:

1) Drop ceiling with lots of light. 2) My dust collector is big, and wired to 220; the unit sits outside of my primary shop space, runs through the wall and along the walls of my shop. It is also exhausted through the foundation wall (a straight shot) through a set of louvers. This enabled me to dedicate a blast gate to each large tool, and have a floor sweeper, etc. I used sewer pipe pvc, which cuts easily on a bandsaw. 3) I added a separate electrical panel, and made sure I had enough space to add more circuits if I needed it. I also added up the amperage to make sure that "if" I was running more than one machine at a time (a distinct possibility with air filtration, shopvacs, etc.) that I wouldn't trip the breakers. 4) I did the rough wiring (running wire, drilling holes, etc.) but saved all the connections for a licensed electrician. I had'em come out to the house, tell me what I needed and basically what to do, and then I called them back when I was ready for the connections.

Lastly, don't forget that you "can" run electrical drops from/through the ceiling. Joe Herrick, an OLF member and all around good guy, has very nice electrical box drops coming down from the ceiling in his shop. They're easily moved, don't clutter up the floor and hold cords up out of the way of the work space...exceptionally nice. (Just a thought).

You can never have too many electrical outlets, or vac connections. (or clamps) bliss

Bill

PS: When's the housewarming party, and how many people can this place accomodate? :D
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Sweet crib Bud! [:Y:] I am envious
Author:  gozierdt [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hesh,

Lots of good suggestions above. I will second that I use GFCI's on all 120v circuits in my shop (two 20 amp power circuits, two 15 amp lighting circuits), and I've never had a problem. A GFCI shouldn't have any problem with a properly wired power tool. I also installed one 20A 220v circuit for my dust collector, and a 30A 220v circuit for heavier power tools. I think with your electrical service panel in the corner of the basement the cost should be minimal to run circuits for you- you'll have short runs, and easy access. I'd locate the shop so that you include the window in one of the rooms- and not necessarily the office. Across the end wall with the window would work well, or along the long wall next to the window would also work. I'd stay away from the end with the stairs/furnace/water heater, etc. I really enjoy ambient light when doing final fitup, sanding/polishing, etc. The shop I have now has three spaces- a 12x12 for heavy machining operations- thickness sander, bandsaw, router table, drill press, oscillating sander. It's tight for all those tools, but by using mobile bases on everything, it's workable. I also have a 4' wide door at one end of this space so if I need to machine longer planks, I can go out the door. Then I have an 8x12 space for storage- wood, screws & hardware, and I also keep my sharpening bench in there. Finally another 12x12 space with two large benches for assembly work. One bench is along a wall, and has drawers and cabinet space below (it's a converted kitchen cabinet). The second bench is out in the room so I can move around it. It mounts two 9" vises on opposing long sides at one end, and a double screw vise completely across the other end. I also make full use of the walls in this room- a cabinet for hand tools; double 18" magnetic strips for chisels, pliers, screwdrivers, etc; clamp storage, hammer and mallet storage, etc. You'll have a little more than 1.5 times the space I have, so you can have a larger space for all the large power tools- that would make for less movement of them all to get access. Looks like it'll be a great space once you get it done- much nicer than what you have now.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hi Hesh,
I would design your shop on paper with all your current power tools (and make allowances for the tools you know you are going to get) and workbenches.
Then make an electrical plan,and wire everything behind the walls that you can-makes for a much cleaner job.
Author:  Andy Matthews [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
I'm going to disagree with some folks here...

When it came to doing my workshop I decided to run the electrical in plastic dado "trunking" around the room. One at about 1ft up from the floor, and a second slightly above bench height. It's easy to install, neat, and means then if you find out you've not got enough power outlets, or they're in the wrong place it's simple and cheap to move them - you just open up the trunk and tap in to the ring!
Installing behind drywall, though less "intrusive" isn't the best solution in a workshop where it could well take you a few attempts to settle on a layout.
With this system it also means that if you decide to add a 240v circuit at a later date you just pop off the covers and run your wiring.

$0.02
Author:  Mark L. [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hesh,

I have done quite a bit of residential wiring and framing in the past. My suggestion would be to go ahead and build your stud walls using pressure treated wood plate against the floor, the rest of the studs can be untreated. Anchor them to the floor with a nail "gun" that uses a .22 blank shell, just like a .22 rifle only it fires nails, it will fire a nail right into concrete. Use the blue building type foam insulation boards against the masonry walls, but leave an airspace between, then put in a vapor barrier, such as polyethelene, over the studs and behind whatever will be your wall surfaces. Do the wiring after the initial framing. As far as wiring, I would suggest a 50 amp breaker in your main box, assuming that you have 200 amp service, that feeds a no.6 gauge 3 wire with ground to a sub panel located in your shop area. Put this sub panel as close as you can to the main 200 amp box to save on wire, copper is very high right now. In the sub panel install at least two 110 volt single pole 20 amp circuit breakers to feed your shop outlets, I would also have a 30 amp two pole breaker for a 220 volt outlet for a large bandsaw for resawing or whatever,use no. 10 wire for this. Feed the 2 single pole breakers with separate phases in your sub panel. Use 12-2 wire with ground for the 110v circuits. As far as GFI's go, don't buy GFI breakers, use GFI outlets as the FIRST outlet that is fed from the panel on each circuit. All other outlets daisy chained from this GFI are also protected by it. GFI outlets are a lot cheaper than GFI breakers! I would probably have a separate 110v 20 amp circuit dedicated for lights too. Just make sure to have plenty of outlets, and as suggested above, mount them high on the wall where ever you plan to have work benches. If you hire an electrical contractor, they can guide you as to what meets your local code. Looks like a great shop space!

Good luck!

Mark L.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Congrats, Hesh!

As an architect I suppose I should advice you to get in touch with an architect and make sure you have everything all planned out and everything on paper before you do anything. However, with workshops I have found that about the only thing that is constant is change, so planning for change is probably the best advice I can give. Don't make anything too permanent, and anticipate additional machinery and storage space.

A 20 x30' workshop sounds about right. My new shop (soon finished, long overdue) is about 15'x30', but I wish it was a tad bigger. The most permanent thing about my new shop is that it is two rooms; one bench room and one machine room (I wish the machine room was a tad bigger). I like to group the big dust producing machines as close together and near the DC, plus in my situation this worked out nicely because of windows etc.

You'll finally have room for a proper cabinet saw! beehive
Author:  grumpy [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Best move I ever did in my last two shops was to wire most of externally, via BX cabling. Two reasons:

a) no holes in the vapor barrier, no holes in the outer walls.

b) more importantly, it allows me to move, safely and correctly, the power if I do re-organize the shop layout(which promise you WILL) as it evolves. there simply isn't any way to completely envision and plan for the inevitable evolution of the shop. with external, shielded wiring, you're free to move around, add circuits, add lights, anything. And much safer, since none of the wiring is hidden inside walls.

As for power, go for as much as you have have. Again, no way to know if you some day decide to have a small CNC and then realize you need a big compressor or vacuum pump and large capacity dust collector, and suddenly, you have 2-3 large machines drawing big amps. Talk to the electrician; he'll tell you if you can add a 100 or 200 amp second panel off your meter, or if yo have t tie into your existing panel. Either way, go overkill now, and you'll never regret it.
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
No Advice on the electrical from me, but better start saving up, the white carpet for that big room is gonna be a killer.
Jeff
Author:  Jody [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
congratulations Hesh! Way to go there buddy ! all of your power tools have a lable that tells you how many amps they draw, it might be a good idea to calculate totals while doing your layout , to figure what tools you want to add on what circut . I would seal all the concrete walls with a concrete sealer before adding your vapor barrier and walls , its a simple step and you can stop a large amount of moisture from wicking through the concrete . also if you can cross ventilate, moving air also removes moistrue from the air .. as well as heat ! Jody
Author:  Dave Anderson [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Congrats on the new place Hesh man! Looks like you will have plenty of room for your shop tools,benches,the bar, and so on. :D I'm not much on electrical hookups but you have got a lot of good advise here already.I would say to make sure and plan ahead on this as you know there will be more cool tools to acquire now that you have the room! Have fun with it bro.I take it you are still in Ann Arbor ?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hesh, I know nothing about lecric stuff, but I love your new space. You are going to have a great time. Big step up (down since it's a basement) from a bathroom. How you gonna keep all that space clean. Keep us posted on the progress. You'll have room for all your guitars now.
Author:  Michael Clark [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Hesh - lots of good input above. Having recently done this I can suggest:

1) calculate how many outlets you think you'll need.
2) double that number
3) throw in a couple of extras for good measure (it's more about having outlets close to where you need them, rather than the raw number of outlets in the shop).
4) include 220 volt circuit(s) even if you don't need it now.

Have fun!

Michael
Author:  fryovanni [ Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Shop Layout/Electrical Planning Assistance Please
Regarding the GFCI. I have regular residential grade GFCI receptacles that I am powering the tools with. The GFCI is monitoring current between the phase conductor and neutral(120v circuits). If it detects a certain amount of current imbalance(current went somewhere else* this is the ground fault part, the GFCI does not care about how much power is consumed as long as it stays in the ciruit) then the circuit will trip. There are two different types of GFCIs that are used one is motor rated(often used on jacuzzi tubs, and has a slightly higher threashold) and the other is the more common rating(tolerance is 6 ma if memory serves) for personal protection. With motors (typically larger across the line started) you have inrush currents that could create enough of an imbalance and trip a GFCI, but I have not found this to be an issue with smaller (2 HP or less) motors on my tools.

The brilliance behind a GFCI is that it will open the circuit before the current flow reaches the threashold that does serious injury to your Body. The latest nifty technology is the AFCI (arch fault ciruit interuptor). These devices actually detect and can identify arcs that have the potential to start fires. They have been required in bedrooms since the 2005NEC code cycle. The 2008 code cycle ramps up the requirement. Someday (in the near future) we will only install AFCI/GFCI breakers and many lives will be save as well as property damage will drop. I think the technology is outstanding.

I think the key is planning out what your needs are. That drop tile ceiling will really help, as well as the close proximity of your panel. Some suggestions may be very cool to have. Dropping cord reels from ceiling mounted receptacles are a great way to reduce extensions dragged across the floor. Plug mold or wire mold for more flexable raceways at benches is very handy. As far as a sub panel, depends on your layout and how many spaces you have in your current panel. If they installed a 42 circuit panel you may have plenty of room(if they gave you a 24 ckt. maybe not), and your access is pretty darn good unless your room layout makes it a pain to get to the panel. As for upgrading your service, that would depend mostely on the equipment you use and of course what is wired in your home( Electric furnace, spa tubs, large double ovens and range, well pumps, pools can load up a 200 amp panel as well as fill up the available spaces).
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