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CA Freezing
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16887		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Billy T [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  CA Freezing
While reading up on CA I discovered that freezing CA causes it to become brittle and break. I don't know what specific use that could have in luthiery but it sound like it could. Just a heads up!
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
Billy are you speaking of a CA cured glue joint or a bottle of CA freezing prior to use?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
I suspect he is referring to cured. However I suspect if you freeze CA in liquid state it will under go degradation. Thing is if you freeze cured hide glue, fish glue, white glue or epoxy at some point it to becomes brittle. Freezing dehydrates dang near anything.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
An interesting side note to this topic is while freezing will damage Caynoacyrlate storing it for long self life does require refrigeration. Some may not know why we need to refrigerate or CA when not in use. So here is the skinny. Caynoacyrlate need moisture to start the chemical reaction that causes the cure. It derives this moisture from the atmosphere. To a point the higher the RH the quicker the reaction starts. The colder the air temp the lower the RH the slower the reaction. So we should keep opened bottles of CA in a cool dry environment when not in use. i.e. next to the Coors. Eat Drink
Author:  clavin [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  This is why I use Star Bond
Star Bond has a two year shelf life with NO freezing or refrigeration needed of any kind.
It also as we have seen here by other's testing it has less than a 2% shrink rate.

If you have not tried it you should.

Craig Lavin
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is why I use Star Bond
clavin wrote:
Star Bond has a two year shelf life with NO freezing or refrigeration needed of any kind.
It also as we have seen here by other's testing it has less than a 2% shrink rate.

If you have not tried it you should.

Craig Lavin


Craig,

I have used Starbond for years yes they do say their product has a non refigerated 2 year shelf life but also say to store in a cool dry location for best shelf life. Another thing is they do state 2% shrinkage but I just did a non scientific simple test on the medim thin last week a got a 5% shrink still pretty darn good.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
I have stored unopened CA in the freezer with no ill effects.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
I don't know what temp CA freezes at, but I bet it's awfully low; I keep my (rather large) bottles of CA in the refrigerator and only refill my two little bottles every week or two.

Everything becomes more brittle as it gets colder (apple + liquid nitrogen). Unless there's a chemical breakdown of CA at very low temperatures, there shouldn't be anything to worry about.
Author:  Billy T [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
Hesh wrote:
Billy are you speaking of a CA cured glue joint or a bottle of CA freezing prior to use?


Cured! It becomes very brittle and shatters easily. Odd that moisture cure is what's required for CA to harden and one of the driest places in the house is the Frig!

Interesting stuff on all glues on Wikipedia! Ran across a couple of others last night.

Seize gluing was one of them. Luthiers who make cellos are known to have a difficult time clamping, evenly, such a large piece as the top of a cello, so what some do is liberally glue the two halfs and rub together until the glue begins to set, then just walk away. The glue draws the two halves together without clamps.

I guess if hide glue is used by glaziers to shear pieces of glass for a shattered look it would clamp wood! Of course, that's at the higher strength glues.

Another process in glueing the top and back to the ribs is to glue the area of the top/back to be in contact with the ribs and let cool without contact to the sides themselves. Then a heated putty knife is run in between the two as top and sides are placed together to reset the glue for bind.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
Do not freeze your CA!
I just checked some data sheets for common CA adhesives that I use - Loctite 4014 and 401.
It says storage below 2 degree C can adversely affect product properties.
Store CA in a cool dry place. I keep mine in the refrigerator.

I know someone brilliant person will argue and say that they've been freezing it for a long time with no problem, ignoring a very respected manufacturer's recommendation.

Just keep doing it if you are happy. It is a free country. [headinwall]
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
SteveS wrote:
Do not freeze your CA!
I just checked some data sheets for common CA adhesives that I use - Loctite 4014 and 401.
It says storage below 2 degree C can adversely affect product properties.
Store CA in a cool dry place. I keep mine in the refrigerator.

I know someone brilliant person will argue and say that they've been freezing it for a long time with no problem, ignoring a very respected manufacturer's recommendation.

Just keep doing it if you are happy. It is a free country. [headinwall]


What did you have for breakfast, Steve?

Here's the recommendation from the makers of Hot Stuff "Industrial Grade" CA:

1) STORAGE:
New, Unopened containers of any instant glue may be stored in the freezer (at or below
32 F) to double shelf life. Always allow the container to warm to room temperature before opening. Once opened, never return an opened bottle to cold storage. Why ? -- Moisture is one of the catalysts. Opening a cold bottle or placing a previously opened bottle back in cold storage causes the warm air that has entered the bottle, (carrying moisture with it), to condense the moisture into water. This has a negative effect on shelf life causing the contents of the bottle to thicken and eventually harden and causes the spout to clog very frequently. The thicker these glues become, from the original viscosity, the more frequently clogs occur.
Author:  Steve Saville [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CA Freezing
Howard,
That's interesting. Where did you find that? Did you get that from the manufacturer's site?
I couldn't find anything from the manufacturer of "Hot Stuff" about storage. I did find sellers and distributors sites that said what you quoted above.

Loctite is a major manufacturer of engineering adhesives. Hot Stuff is consumer grade, but they are essentially the same product. Loctite does a lot of studies on their product and supplies technical data sheets that I have never seen with consumer brands. I would trust the information from Loctite when they say not to store CA below freezing C over distributors of a similar product that says freezing is OK.
YMMV - If you or anyone else is happy with storing their CA in the freezer, go ahead. I would not recommend it.
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