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Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16893		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Sam W [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Reading the the posts on "outsourcing" your finishes got me to thinking.

Reading between the lines made me think that for any commercial succes with steel string guitars the finish should/must be sprayed nitro or poly.

Does anyone (or do you know anyone) who has/is acheiving commercial success using french polish, oil finish etc. on their steel string guitars? I actually enjoy putting the finish on (only french polish so far) but I fully understand from a business point of view the reasons for outsourcing.

I know in the Kinkead book several of his guitars have captions saying they are oil finished.

Anybody else doing this?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Sam W wrote:
Reading the the posts on "outsourcing" your finishes got me to thinking.

Reading between the lines made me think that for any commercial succes with steel string guitars the finish should/must be sprayed nitro or poly.

Does anyone (or do you know anyone) who has/is acheiving commercial success using french polish, oil finish etc. on their steel string guitars? I actually enjoy putting the finish on (only french polish so far) but I fully understand from a business point of view the reasons for outsourcing.

I know in the Kinkead book several of his guitars have captions saying they are oil finished.

Anybody else doing this?


I don't know if I can claim success but I will try. ME bliss bliss I do many types of finish on my commissions. I personally think French polish is sonically the best possible finish regardless of sting type. I have to disagree that for a guitar to be commercially viable it needs to be sprayed nitro or Cat poly.
Martins were FP'd for many years. Most top dollar classicals are FP'd or hand rubbed nitro. It really is only the fact that the general public has gotten use to seeing deep high gloss sprayed finishes that drives the crave for such. my experience with professional musicians is that most understand finishes quite well and go with hard finishes on traveling instruments and are not objective at all to FP or other hand rubbed finishes on instruments that are not exposed to the more extreme conditions day in and day out.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
One of the few FP finishes that I've put on a steel string (virtually all my Classicals are FP) was a 000-42 style guitar acquired by multi instrumentalist Paul Asbell. He featured it on the front and back of his "Steel String Americana" CD.
I think with pros its ultimately what sounds best.....................
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Virtually all of the guitars I make are French polished, properly done it is a tough finish and is sonically as good as it gets. On my lutes I use a hand rubbed oil varnish and recently I used this varnish on a Torres copy (Torres himself used oil varnish).

I also own a guitar made by Kevin Aram, Kevin builds some of the best classical guitar in Europe, Julian Bream uses two of his guitars. Kevin uses oil finishes exclusively on his high end guitars.

Many people now use Tru-oil as a finish for guitar necks regardless of the finish on the body, but a lot of people also succesfully use it for the entire guitar, I've seen a couple like this and they have a nice rich depth of sheen without looking as if they've been coated in plastic, the wood still looks like wood.

Oil finish is a fine, high quality alternative for the guitar builder, which when properly applied is the equal of anything else out there.

Here's a picture of my recent oil varnished Torres, La lena.

Attachment:
La lena quarter.JPG


Colin
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Colin,
When you oil finish how do you handle the top. Do you oil spruce ? Do you seal with shelac first. Some woods don't like oil. Doug fir is fine with oil but I have never tried spruce.
Thanks,
Link
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
This is such a can of worms in some ways. Part of the problem, IMO, is that customers have gotten so used to 'bulletproof' finishes on production instruments that it can be difficult to get them to treat a FP or oil varnish with the respect and care it deserves. Yes, both can be plenty tough enough for 'normal' usage, but what I think of as normal seems to come across as 'babying' to many folks now.

I use FP and oil/resin varnish (Behlen's 'Rockhard Table Top Varnish') on my instruments. With a little care you can get just as good a gloss with either of them as you can with nitro, although maybe not quite the hard shine that UV cure polyester gives. Frankly, I find that to be a bit too much. Oil varnish has the added bonus of having a refractive index that is much closer to that of wood, so it looks 'deeper' than most other finishes.

I usually use the varnish where wear and solvent resistance might be an issue, since it seems to be a bit tougher than fresh FP. Shellac, of course, gets tougher and more solvent resistant with age: a 75year old FP job will be nearly as bulletproff as that UV cure stuff, but nobody seems to want to wait.

Oil does have a tendancy to 'eat' sound, and particularly high frequencies. A thin coat of oil varnish doesn't seem to be too much of a problem, though. Varnish also goes on a bit thicker than FP, and the added weight in a top might be an issue for some instruments. I don't usually worry about in on the B&S.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Colin S wrote:
Here's a picture of my recent oil varnished Torres, La lena.


Colin, that reminds me how beautiful that guitar is.
What's the oil finish you used on it again? Applied by brush, wiped on?
Also are you familiar with the work of Alexander Batov?
http://vihuelademano.com/
His vihuelas look fantastic, I wonder if he uses the same kind of finish you mention doing on your lutes. Would you like to expand on this (not to hijack the thread…)?
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
The oil finish I use is a clear oil varnish, drying hard and applied very thinly in a similar way to French polish. I apply it with a muneca, rather than a brush, this way I get a very thin even coating. The oil finishes I do just lightly rub out with rottenstone.

Prior to applying the finish the wood is sized and sealed with egg white. On tests using spruce (and other woods) I have found that the egg white stops any absorbsion of the oil, by the spruce. Measured thickness of the finish is in the same ball park as French polish. But I guess it would be very easy to FP the top and oil finish the rest if you are worried about absorbsion.

I think similar results could be obtained using Tru-oil, which if I was a first time builder again would most certainly be my finish of choice for a first guitar.

Alan you are quite right that many people don't treat their instruments with the respect they deserve, but if you look at the finish on some of the 18th and early 19th century instruments, it is as hard as any modern sprayed on finish, and still relatively easy to repair.

That said I have French polished thirty or so instruments and used oil on half a dozen.

Colin
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Link, a shellac seal would be fine under the oil.

Colin
Author:  Kirt Myers [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
How would you guys compare Tru-oil to Behlens Rock hard? Are they as repairable as a french polish finish would be?

I'm thinking of padding an oil over a shellac seal and pumice fill.

Thanks.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
For the past 3 guitars, I have French Polished the body and used Danish oil on the necks. I am pleased with the look and feel. It does require the extra care and so I have limited that finish to my personal guitars and continue to gift out the bullet-proof finishes to sons, brothers and godsons.

I am seriously considering only FP for the top and having the back and sides finished in SATIN Cat Poly...a much thinner finish than glossy I am told. Stay tuned!
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Kirt wrote:
How would you guys compare Tru-oil to Behlens Rock hard? Are they as repairable as a french polish finish would be?

I'm thinking of padding an oil over a shellac seal and pumice fill.

Thanks.


Tru-Oil seems to be a little more forgiving than Rockhard, but nothing like shellac or lacquer. The issue with spot repairs on oil varnishes is witness lines, so when a problem occurs the whole panel has to be refinished. CA repairs and fills are invisible under a coat of Rockhard.
Author:  Larry Drover [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Colin S wrote:
Prior to applying the finish the wood is sized and sealed with egg white. On tests using spruce (and other woods) I have found that the egg white stops any absorbsion of the oil, by the spruce.

Colin

Colin....This is the second time I have seen that someone has used egg white....Are there any special preparation of the whites .....Can you elaborate a little on the procedure....Thanks...Larry
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
I think Joshua French had the method down. Break egg, separate yolk, put white in jar or bowl, paint on guitar. I have also seen other methods used, which include beating the whites, and letting them stand until the clear liquid settles out, and using the clear liquid.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
WaddyT wrote:
I think Joshua French had the method down. Break egg, separate yolk, put white in jar or bowl, paint on guitar. I have also seen other methods used, which include beating the whites, and letting them stand until the clear liquid settles out, and using the clear liquid.


Beat the whites much and they turn in to a froth that will not settle out to a clear liquid. Then you have Morang. But you can always bake a coconut cream pie and top it pizza
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
WaddyT wrote:
I think Joshua French had the method down. Break egg, separate yolk, put white in jar or bowl, paint on guitar. I have also seen other methods used, which include beating the whites, and letting them stand until the clear liquid settles out, and using the clear liquid.


That's what I do too, just separate the white and paint it straight on. Joshua and I differ in that he puts the white into a Margharita glass, whereas I use a Whisky tumbler. I see no point in beating and settling. I like to whisk the yolk into hot milk with a large tot of Talisker, the perfect cure for any ill.

Colin
Author:  RREvans [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
Colin - Could you elaborate a bit more on how you apply the oil varnish? Are you essentially "wiping" the varnish on? How's the varnish formulated? I've tried this technique with limited success, although it always seems promising!

Thanks!

Rob
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
He could tell you, but then he'd have to have you done in. No one will know the secret formula. I don't think he even knows. Just pays dearly for it.
Author:  Dave Livermore [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
This is about the third time I've seen you guys mention "sizing" with egg whites.

Could someone please go beyond mentioning and explain why and what benefits are realized from this technique? Is it used for techniques other than French Polishing?

Thanks

Dave
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
The best explanation that I have heard is that it is much like starching a shirt. The proteins in the egg white combine with the fibers in the soft wood, and provide some additional stiffness in the fibers, and it seals the top so it does not absorb the shellac spit coats. It may help achieve a faster finish build. I don't know about finishes other than FP, but many use shellac as a sealer under other finishes anyway, and in that case, I can see it being just fine. I get the impression that it is primarily for tops, but I have seen some information in the archives here at OLF where it is also used as a filler. Here they are;

First
Second
Third

Look around in the topics, as there is lots of discussion. These links go directly to the posts. There are actually two entrys by Shawn in the second topic.
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
I'm actually doing some testing on this new fast drying varnish that I saw in finewoodworking this month.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30611

I'm applying it to a custom wooden hammer that I made. So far it seems very promising. The first coat takes a full 24 hours to dry, but other coats are dry in about 4 hours. Forgot to mention that I'm using Behlens Rock hard table top varnish for this mix.

I wanted to ask the varnishers here if using this recipe on a guitar, should I put on a few coats of shellac so the oil doesn't soak in too much? I'll post a picture of the hammer once I'm done.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
I'm using the egg white sizing primarily to prevent the bleeding of rosewood onto lighter woods such as spruce and various maple veneers used in marquetries as well as in my most recent instrument
the cypress back and sides. Brazilian rosewood is not too bad but East Indian can bleed extensively in that first wash coat of shellac leaving the light inlay lines a rather pink hue...........the egg wash seems to be quite effective in preventing this.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
So, David, are you doing the whole body in it? Just one coat?
Author:  David LaPlante [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
yes.
Author:  Colin S [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Non-sprayed finishes on steel string guitars
David's right of course, the egg wash is perfect for sealing coloured purfling prior to applying shellac. I often use dyed pear or poplar in quite bright colours as top perfling as below, I can't imagine that it wouldn't bleed into the spruce without the egg wash. It's also very good for raising any grain prior to finishing, I don't sand it back but sort of buff it back with cotton cloth this gives me a very smooth surface to add the shellac or oil varnish. In fact, I just egg washed a violin body today.

Attachment:
013 (3).jpg


Colin
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