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Author:	Goobie [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Problem Fretting
Hello, I'm having a problem with fretting the neck on my current project. I used a stewmac table saw blade which they claim to cut .023" slots. I am also using SM's #152 fretwire, which they say requires a .023" slot. Not a problem so far.... However, When I tried to hammer the first fret into board it wouldn't even start in the slot. I ended up chipping the edge of the slot slightly. I even ran a triangle file in the slots to chamfer the edges to help it start. I'll fill with fix the small chips with epoxy and ebony dust, not a huge problem. The problem is however, that the slots are only .020" wide at best... The .020" feeler was really tight in some slots. So I measured the blade's width at the teeth and it's only .019". That's a bit of a burn... I didn't think to check the blade before using it, but I really shouldn't have to do that anyway... To make matters worse the fingerboard is bound and glued on the prepped-for-finish neck. Any idea on how to widen the slots? Any other solutions?!? Cheers, Chad

Author:	Howard Klepper [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Do you have a .023" kerf handsaw? If so, I think removing the binding, hand sawing and replacing the binding is probably less work than trying to enlarge the slots with the binding on. For the latter approach, you could make a scraper from an appropriate thickness exacto-type replaceable blade knife. Hard to get that kind of scraper right to the end of the slot in a bound board, though.

Author:	Goobie [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Thanks for the quick reply Howard. To be honest... The thought of removing the binding makes me as nervous as a snake in a roomful of rocking chairs... I'd really like to avoid that if at all possible. I will explore the scraper option and test on a piece of scrap. Would it be a bad idea to try and file the tangs themselves? I guess removing any of the barbs is probably not a good idea?!? Man... yet another lesson learned. Never trust a given measurement without checking for yourself. Cheers, Chad

Author:	Rod True [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Chad, removing the binding honestly would be much easier than fiddling with an exacto saw or trying to make the slots wider with the binding on. The other thing you can do to is to remove the fretboard (this is all part of being a good builder) and than taking off the binding, cutting the slots with a fret saw (I have one you can borrow if you don't have a hand fret saw) than re-binding and glueing the board back on the neck. Take a look here, I had to remove the fretboard of my latest guitar and put up a way of doing it. Maybe it will help you out. Chad where are you located in Canada? Oh one more thing. Send the blade back to Stew Mac, they know that some of their blades where made small and will replace it with a new one that should be fine. They are increadible with their customer service. If you don't want to go back to the Stew Mac blade, they will still take it back and refund your $ I believe. You can than purchase one of the blades that Shane Neifer had specially made just for cut fret board slots, he's a sponsor here too (see link at top of page, High Mountain Tonewoods). I have one of his blades, works great.

Author:	Goobie [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
That's good to hear about stewmac. I'll certainly be contacting them. Speaking of stewmac, I see they sell a couple of tools to reduce the tang width. Would I run into trouble with frets popping up if i took off some of the barb? Your post on how to remove the fingerboard does make it seem a little less daunting and it just might be what I'll end up doing. I guess I want to explore all my options before removing the fingerboard. I am in Ottawa. I guess I should include some more detail in my profile... and thank you for the offer to borrow the saw, but I think it may be a little too far to drive Cheers, Chad

Author:	Brett L Faust [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Chad, If you own a dremel tool with router base you can widen your slots with a small burr.This is a common practice before a refret to clean out the gunk in the slots. I think Stewmac sells a bit for just this sort of thing.

Author:	Todd Mylet [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Chad, Howard and Rod's advice is good and I think I would recommend the same approach. That said, there are ways to work with what you've got. I do a lot of refrets during repair work and very often the fret wire I want to use doesn't match the fret slot. When the slot is too small, I reduce the size of the tang and/or barb on the fret wire. If it only needs a little reduction, I'll mash the barbs on the fret wire flat with a tool similar to the Stew-Mac pliers you mentioned. If it needs more reduction, I'll file or grind (with a dremel) the tang until it fits. If you're using standard acoustic guitar fret wire, you may be able to find wire with a similar crown size but narrower tang/barb that would actually fit well, or at least better. Martin offers their acoustic guitar fret wire in a whole host of tang widths starting with either .0185 or .0195 (I can't remember which) and increasing in .001 increments up to .0225 I think. This wire can be a real time saver. As you might imagine, the tang grinding/mashing approaches can be very time consuming so I would definite strongly consider the approaches Howard and Rod recommend first. Good luck, Todd

Author:	Larry Drover [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Chad....I feel your frustration.....Heres a very simple solution....Measure twice, check again...dry fit , refit again.....Takes a couple of minutes.....It can save you hours and hours of work that can take the fun out of building......Larry

Author:	Howard Klepper [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Reducing the barbs is not going to do it for you. The core of the tang should not be bigger than the slot. If you force it in you will be "compression fretting" and will force a backbow into the neck. But the dremel idea may work well. I haven't done that myself, but I have been told that the right burr will track the slot very well. Also, StewMac makes a tool for cleaning fret slots with a hook shaped removable exacto-type blade. I think the blade width is .023". It could be used as a scraper for resizing the slots. But I still think removing and replacing the binding (either with the old or with new binding) is the best way to go.

Author:	Robbie O'Brien [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
This problem is actually much more common than one might expect and can be quite frustrating. Depending on the species of wood you use also determines how well the tang fits. For example, I have found that cutting the same size kerf in ebony as oppossed to rosewood will make a difference to how tight the tang fits, even though the tang size is the same in both examples. My solution has been to use a dremel tool and a dental bit. Dull the bit slightly with a file and it will follow the existing kerf with no problem. I have also used the Stew Mac tang reducing tool, basically a set of pliers to mash the tang a bit. I also have used a file to lightly file the burrs of the tang a bit. I have found that the end of a knife file has a slight radius on it and works well for this. I have even used a combination of all of the above examples. How hard can it be to make a saw kerf the exact size as the tang on the wire? Apparently it is pretty tough to keep both consistent. I have found wide variences in tang width from the same batch of fretwire.

Author:	stan thomison [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
The dremel with dental burr is what we do and really good fast option. Run it one way and not worry about going back and forth with it, remembering the more you do, the more chance on it getting away.

Author:	Goobie [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Thanks for the replies guys, I tested the dremel idea on a piece of scrap that I ran some slots in with the stewmac blade... It does track the slot very well after all. I wouldn't have thought so... The smallest bit I have on hand is a 1/32" which is obviously too big for my purpose, but it certainly proved to me that this method should work. Maybe I'll try and find a properly sized bit and give that a try. Another thing I tested in the scrap piece was to file the barbs off one side of the tang. I was able to hammer the fret in place without problem. I still think I'd be creating a slight back bow by doing this for reasons Howard gave above, but they did go in with relative ease. With such a tight fit the remaining barbs should still be quite effective I would think. I guess I'll have to decide what method has the most acceptable risk factor to me. Cheers, Chad

Author:	Goobie [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Problem Fretting
Just wanted to give an update and thank you all again for the help I've gotten here. I "tuned" a dremel bit to cut a channel the correct size and gave it a shot. It went really well. I was able to widen the slots very evenly and quickly. Installing the frets also went great and I'm very happy with the results! Cheers, Chad

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