Official Luthiers Forum!
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/

all you lumberjacks out there
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16924		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  all you lumberjacks out there
Hi,

Driving home today i noticed a large 'norway spruce' ,as you call it, beside the road. Most of it had been cut into firewood but a large part of the trunk was left behind. It was about 4 feet long and about 31" in diameter( this is a very rare thing to come across in my parts). I went up to the house to see if i could buy it from them, but of course they were not home.
So i was wondering what the accepted grain spacing would be for a guitar top. I'm about to build my first so this could be a great practice piece, but i wont bother with it if it's below every standard.
the spacing varied a bit, from about 1mm up to 3 mm at the biggest. So my question is could this make a good, possibly great guitar?

Thanks,

Frank
Author:  KenH [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
If you bucked the log to 24" long and then split it in a pie shape with the center of the log being the edge of every piece, I dont see why you couldnt use it for a practice guitar. Keep in mind that the wood would have to be stacked, stickered and dried for a good while before it would be useable.

I have never heard of using norway spruce for a guitar top, but you never know what good things you might find. then again, you might be highly dissappointed too. its a gamble, but for practice it might work.
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Hodges_Guitars wrote:
If you bucked the log to 24" long and then split it in a pie shape with the center of the log being the edge of every piece, I dont see why you couldnt use it for a practice guitar. Keep in mind that the wood would have to be stacked, stickered and dried for a good while before it would be useable.

I have never heard of using norway spruce for a guitar top, but you never know what good things you might find. then again, you might be highly dissappointed too. its a gamble, but for practice it might work.


Yes i'm aware it would take a while to dry them up. seemed too good to pass up if i could get it almost free of charge.

ps. Shane i'm still up for a couple of those lutze's [:Y:]
Author:  grumpy [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Grab it!
Author:  Larry Davis [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
"Lumberjack" is a sissy eastern movie name. eek

In the Northwest we are "loggers".... not "axmen" either!!! gaah laughing6-hehe
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
The Torenius Sawmill, Forcett, Tasmania...
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Those are some serious saw blades, Rick!
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Larry Davis wrote:
"Lumberjack" is a sissy eastern movie name. eek

In the Northwest we are "loggers".... not "axmen" either!!! gaah laughing6-hehe


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clPYfaTvHT0

He doesn't seem to mind that term... laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe, you gotta love those guys
Author:  Rick Turner [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
That's the mill that Bob MacMillan and I will be working with in the future to cut guitar making timbers in Tasmania. I've had a couple of meetings with the owner, also a Bob...Torenius, and he just purchased a horizontal resaw for the project. He already quarter saws most of the logs that come through...mostly "Tasmanian Oak" which is actually a eucalypt and can also be known as Mountain Ash or Swamp Gum. I'm going back in August, and we should be up and running with guitar and uke sets coming out in various species by fall. Torenius also has a really nice indirectly solar heated kiln for drying timbers; the kiln has solar panels on the roof, and the heat and humidity are nicely controlled in the kiln itself.

I think the Tassie oak has a high potential as both back and side wood and as solid body guitar wood. A fair amount of it has excellent fiddleback figure, and in general it looks a lot more like quartered ash than like oak. I built my demo mandolin when teaching there with Tassie oak back and sides, and there are very few woods I've bent that were nicer to work than that stuff. Tap tone on it is somewhere between maple and Indian rosewood. It's very plentiful there with much going into flooring and paneling. My girlfriend there has her living room floor done in Tassie oak as well as her dining room table and the siding on her house. It's kind of like how mahogany and koa are used in those areas where they are simply "normal" woods and readily available.

OK, sorry for the highjack du thread!
Author:  Sam Price [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
frank777 wrote:
Larry Davis wrote:
"Lumberjack" is a sissy eastern movie name. eek

In the Northwest we are "loggers".... not "axmen" either!!! gaah laughing6-hehe


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clPYfaTvHT0

He doesn't seem to mind that term... laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe, you gotta love those guys


Classic stuff!!!! :D laughing6-hehe
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
how large would you have the billets before stacking up for drying?
Author:  KenH [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
24+ inches long by about 6" wide on the bark side

it would be better to remove the bark before you store them to keep the bark beetles out of it
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Hey Frank,

Do grab it!! I just spent the day, with some help from some friends, splitting up a 40 foot log so I will post a few pics soon on how I split spruce. Grain count is not really the significant issue and you really don't know the properties of the wood until you process them in to tops. With experience you see the signals of quality earlier but still, until the sets are dried you don't know for sure. Another thing in your favour is that soft woods (conifers) dry very fast once you remove the sap wood. I am sure about P.abies but Sitka and the hybrids have a noticeable sap wood layer that I remove. Engelmann hybrids don't have a noticeable (different colour) sap wood so it can stay. In any regard, everything inside the sap wood is surprisingly dry, I have done a few tests! So you can dry this stuff quite quickly and there have been some world class guitars from spruce that had harvested 6 months prior.

One more thing, I prefer to slice tops right after I split the log. The sooner the better with tops I say, they dry faster with less loss to drying defects. Back and sides are a different story!

Shane
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Shane Neifer wrote:
Hey Frank,



One more thing, I prefer to slice tops right after I split the log. The sooner the better with tops I say, they dry faster with less loss to drying defects. Back and sides are a different story!

Shane



how big do you slice them, do you saw this, or split. i've done some splitting on previous occasion drying wood for other projects i've always just used an axe and splitting wedges.(usually only split logs into quarters though).
Author:  fryovanni [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Shane's methods seem to work the best, listen to his advise [:Y:] . You should make sure you have everything figure out as far as tools and what not to process the wood, before you buck and split the wood. I really don't like allowing softwood to dry in split large form. Your losses go up very fast. At a minimum, I will get it down to 2" thick stock. I try to cut it down to soundboards, and or carved top dimensions, then sticker and dry it with really good air circulation(fans). Thin stock like soundboards dry very fast really, and you are able avoid the drying hazards (the longer the wood is wet the more risk you face).

Also, Shane's comment on growth ring spacing. Again, I really agree with him. I have run across some amazingly stiff soundboards with wider growth rings. You really will only know how good the wood is after you slice up some sets. All the "cosmetic" grading counts for selling the wood(to a builder or client you are building for), but means about jack when it comes to finding really good sets to use.

Good Luck!
Rich
Author:  Daniel M [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
At 31" in diameter, you may be able to remove all of the sap wood & still get a reasonable yield in soundboards, But... I would get the bark off as soon as possible & leave the sapwood on. If it doesn't get stained from mold & fungus, you could increase your yield enormously.
But, like Mario & others have said... Grab It! Quickly!!!
The sooner you get it sliced into tops, the less wood you will lose to cracks & checking. A week in sunshine can destroy the wood for tonewood production. Wrapping your blocks in plastic film will slow down cracking, but it *can* speed up mold growth.
Some guys dunk the blocks in a bleach solution to slow down mold growth.
Good luck!
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
gaah gaah got a message from the owner today, he intended to use it for himself [headinwall] gaah.

still i'm very interested in the process, part because tonewood suppliers are generally far away, and part because when i do something i like to get a feel for all that goes into it.

the way i've done it in the past is just to split log in quarters and paint the ends with an oil-based paint. And this has worked very well, but i've only done this with hardwoods, mostly oak.
like the last picture in my thread about necks show.http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum ... 01&t=16851
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Frank (and others that are newer to the forum), here is a link to an archived thread on processing tops. I think that the thread links to two other parts of harvesting and moving the wood.

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=8316&p=109803&hilit=+processing#p109803

I hope you find this of interest and some help. I am ALWAYS available to answer questions.

Thanks

Shane
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Hodges_Guitars wrote:
I have never heard of using norway spruce for a guitar top, but you never know what good things you might find. then again, you might be highly dissappointed too. its a gamble, but for practice it might work.


Norway spruce is Picea abies, the only native European spruce and one of the most widely used guitar top woods. The grain spacing is in the right range for guitar tops; 2mm or wider is not desirable, and even spacing is preferable to variable spacing, but that is a cosmetic issue. No reason from what has been posted to think this wood could not make first-rate guitar tops.

A cut log degrades rapidly at its ends. If you get it, immediately seal the ends, preferably with an paraffin emulsion made for log sealing. Then as soon as possible, begin to split it into wedges. You will learn a lot about its suitability for tops when you split it a couple of times. If the grain runs straight, it's best to saw and sticker the tops soon after splitting, but OK to store the wedges for a while out of the sun and rain. You will get more degrade the longer you wait to saw, but a lot of companies that process wood for guitars will let the wedges sit for a while.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Oh, I didn't read down to where you aren't going to get it. Keep an eye out for the next one.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Frank,

Find out what he is using it for. If you can even just get a piece of it to get some sets from that would be a bonus! Once you tell the owner that you will be making musical instruments from it sometimes they are very happy to part with a piece!

Good luck

Shane
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: all you lumberjacks out there
Shane Neifer wrote:
Frank (and others that are newer to the forum), here is a link to an archived thread on processing tops. I think that the thread links to two other parts of harvesting and moving the wood.

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=8316&p=109803&hilit=+processing#p109803

I hope you find this of interest and some help. I am ALWAYS available to answer questions.

Thanks

Shane


oops_sign should have done a better job at searching the archives.
Thanks a lot for sharing this process. [:Y:]

I went for a hike today, with tonewood in the back of my head, i found a few spruces that would be large enough to make guitar tops, but what i could find of any size was chockfull of twigs and branches, i will be on the lookout though.

Thanks
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/