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OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16927		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
Here it is folks...my first top. X-brace height in the middle is 610 thou. When I hold it and tap it ...it has a nice ping to it...but I have no reference to how long the ping should last. Top is 96 thou...

A big thanks to Ken Hodges.....right off the bat!
Author:  grumpy [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
Why the big by large bridge plate? What's the for why of the purpose?
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
As Mario pointed out, the bridge plate seems excessively large, especially up front to me.
I also don't understand the scalloping on the forward side of the X. Maybe you could explain that to me.
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
Grumpy....I can honestly answer..."not sure"...I will say this though...

I felt as thought my top was not stiff enough (with no prior referece other than a top Ken Hodges let me bend). Since my top was not stiff enough, again with no prior reference, I felt a larger bridge plate might help. Maybe I went too far. Please comment.
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
Scalloping on the forward side of the X-brace....hmmmmm....I have no answer to that. I should probably state that this is my first...and other than a few photos here...and a few photos from the net...I have never even seen scalloped braces before.

But please don't be shy...tell it like it is.
Author:  Allen McFarlen [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
Sound hole braces look like lumber to me. Thin them to a narrow profile along the top edge. Finger braces look a bit heavy for my liking as well. As others said, bridge plate is far too large. I'm sure others will come along and give some more input. Good luck.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
So much of this is about getting feel for the size and shape. And it isn't like one way of doing the braces will be right for every top or every style of guitar. I usually don't comment on these threads because my bracing does not look like the standard Martin/Santa Cruz/Collings styles, and you are probably better off copying some standard design until you are ready to go from there.

That being said: I agree that the bridge plate extends too far toward the X; but I have taken to putting a small cross brace between the X and the plate, with no ill effects. That is not conventional, though.

Finger braces look a little too tall over too much of their length; I'd extend the slope from both ends closer to their center.

Throughout the lower bout, I'd taper the brace ends closer to the top, especially near the rim, and extend that slope further inward. But I probably do this more than most folks. The lower face diagonals ("tone bars") look too tall for too much of their length at the upper end; I'd want to see a more graceful shape.

Shaping the profile of the soundhole braces is the convention, and looks better, but won't change the sound much. However, do taper them close to the top where they meet the X and upper transverse.

Cap the X.

None of this is required, and good builders differ on all of it.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
Snig my friend other then the very good comments of the others I think that you did a nice job on this top.

So where do you go from here to improve it a bit if you wish?

Well I think that the scalloping of the upper X was not a good idea but I see enough wood there to still be OK. I would knock off the peaks near the front of the X legs to be a graceful transition to the rim. Just don't take any more height off the low parts of the upper X legs.

Where ever possible, and you have lots of places that this is possible, remove brace material from the sides of the braces so that they are more triangular in profile as opposed to being mostly square with a rounded top.

Cap the X as Howard indicated and the cap only needs to be 1/16" thick over the intersection. Cap prior to reprofiling the braces so the cap can be profiled too.

Reduce the height of the finger braces and work on the triangular profiles again reducing mass.

But if you glued this top on now you would still IMHO have a nice sounding guitar. This is your first and I see some good stuff here. Nice going. [clap] [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]
Author:  BruceH [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
I'd suggest that you cap the x and trim down the finger braces like others have said.

Then finish it without shaving anything else.



After playing it for a month or so, experiment with shaving off the peaks:

Shave the peaks off the forward part of the x and listen to the results.

Shave the peaks off of the tone bars and again listen to the results.

Shave a little of the peak off the lower X braces and make note of the changes.

May not be the fastest way, but you'll learn a lot.
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
I took the top out to the shop and I lowered the height of the finger braces, lengthened the scoop on the ends of the lower x brace arms, and took a little more off the sides of everything below the sound hole.

There is a distinct difference in the ping. It lasts a little longer...nothing you could measure....but it's there. I suspect a more experienced person might take this top a little farther by trimming off more...but I am nervous to do so. I don't want to muddy up the lower end.

Keep it coming...but thank you to those that chimed in already.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
Agree on the big bridge plate, beefy finger braces, scalloped upper X and starting the taper of the X and tone bars farther away from the edge of the top to free up the edge a little. What do you all think of the angle of the X? looks to me like you could spread it a little and still catch the edges of the bridge. I'm kind of a fan of a wider angle provided the bridge is supported.
I wouldn't rip anything apart, I agree with Hesh, it'll be a fine guitar the way it is.
I guess the real answer is record your specs, finish the guitar, see how it sounds, and then build another and another and another and another with little tweaks here and there. It's a never ending process
Good luck
Terry
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
I saw the cap too at first look and concur.

I also do not scallop the transverse brace under the fingerboard, matter of fact, I copy Martins double transverse brace retro to the plan that came with my kit in '99.

I thought that thickness for your top was a bit thin and like your idea of the larger plate to salvage the top. After you work on a few, you'll have no problem tossing an oops top and starting over, but we understand the attempt to conserve the top. Might be better on a parlor than a dred at this point.

Again on the bridge plate, I've actually had to increase the bridge plate size on one guitar to have enough room for standard size pickups from K and K. Looks like you have plenty of room to add one there.....

You did ask for critique and everything I read will help you out now and later on. Congratulations and keep after it. bd
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: OH Yeah...ANOTHER...bracing critique request....
I’m with most here to much bridge plate forward of the bridge, Also I like to see the shaved tapered shape extended down the brace further, more of the brace shaved to the triangular shape and less rectangular stock left. The majority of strength comes from height not width. Width to me is just added mass.
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