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Headstock preview and a couple questions
http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16936		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Chansen [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Headstock preview and a couple questions
Here is a preview of my first headstock. I started out with a nice layout but then when it came time to see what it would look like and how the tuners would fit I started making some freehand adjustments on the beltsander at work and before I knew it, it was a little daintier at the top than I would have liked. Overall I am happy with it though. Couple questions -
1. Do you see the black spot on the back in between the two lower tuners... what is that? It just appeared, and doesn't want to sand out.
2. Do you see any problems with this design or layout?
3. Does the nut look to low as it sits currently? Trying to get a good fit I also inadvertently went a little low. It sits good now so if it isn't too short I won't have to make any more changes.

Any advise or suggestions before I move on? Thanks all!
Author:  Sam Price [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Lovely shape!!! To me, the tuners look well balanced on the headstock.

The nut might be a little low; but then at the stage I am at, I leave a large margin for error and always start off with more nut material , filing down and making those fine adjustments.

It's difficult to tell from the photograph, but it seems that the volute is a little too low - I make the bottom curve of my volutes sit a little above the line of the top nut- not for aesthetic reasons, it's so that it doesn't obstruct the hand during play. It's usually when you're playing the F major chord you notice (don't ask me how I know this! :mrgreen: )

I apologise if that volute is indeed higher than I have estimated.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Looks good to me Chris [clap] [clap] [clap]

You can always fit a new nut if you find it needs to be higher.

Dave F.
Author:  Chansen [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Thanks Sam,
I'm not crazy about the shape of the headstock but it is a lesson learned in making changes on the fly with nothing drawn up. Aw well. Here is a profile pic with the volute in relation to the nut. It peaks right below the nut. That was exactly the kind of info I was looking for... I hadn't even thought about that but it seems to have naturally fallen in line with where it should be. I promptly checked it with an F chord :D . Does it still look out of place or is it ok? I mounted the bottom tuners a ways up to make sure they were on the flat of the back... I think it works ok.

Oh, and I am afraid I may need a new nut. Dahhhh!
Author:  Sam Price [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Christian,

If that was my "volute", I'd raise it a little.

Personally I prefer to have a 21mm "thickness" of the neck from the nut on the first fret.

However I don't deem myself an expert at these things and hope that a professional luthier will chime in soon. :)
Author:  Rvsgtr [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Don't know if you plan on using a capo, or what kind, but the volute would probably rule out the screw adjustable type such as Mckinney or Paige, etc. Otherwise it should be fine. Since I like to rest my capo at the nut when not in use I always start the base of the volute just under the nut as on Martin guitars, example.

Otherwise I think the headstock looks fine. Love the open back tuners.

Best of luck.

SR
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
It looks good to me too. One suggestion would be to mark out your nut slots and trace the string path to the tuners to be sure that the middle strings don't hit the middle tuners as they pass by.

I have been plagued with low nuts for the last 5=6 builds and keep having to make new ones....... So your nut does look low to me but like Dave said you can always make a new one.

I like the shape of the head stock - nice work. [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap]
Author:  Dave Rector [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Hesh wrote:
I have been plagued with low nuts


wow7-eyes wow7-eyes
Author:  SimonF [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
The volute placement looks perfect - as does the height.

--
Simon
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Couple of things! It may be the photo but the nut appears to be tilting back and not at a right angle to the fretboard. Being at an angle tilting away from the fretboard will cause intonation issues big time. The fretboard appears to have this back angle cut into it. The nut does not appear to be seated fully. Notice that if the seat angle of the was fully seated the nut would lay perpendicular to the fretboard.
Attachment:
nut issue.png


I would also like to se the curved fillet wings near the nut tapered at a back angle toward the pegheat but this is no biggie.
Author:  Chansen [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Good catch Michael, I will take a look when I get home to make sure the slot is at 90 degrees... which I do believe is but will double and triple check. It may be deceiving because no, the nut is not sitting flush in the slot. That is more difficult than I would have originally anticipated to get a nice tight seat on all three planes. I am probably going to give LMI a call today for a new nut.

Oh and I use both a Planet Waves capo and a typical Kyser so I don't think I will make any adjustments to the volute but will reference that for future builds. Thanks everyone!
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
MichaelP wrote:
Couple of things! It may be the photo but the nut appears to be tilting back and not at a right angle to the fretboard. Being at an angle tilting away from the fretboard will cause intonation issues big time. The fretboard appears to have this back angle cut into it. The nut does not appear to be seated fully. Notice that if the seat angle of the was fully seated the nut would lay perpendicular to the fretboard.
Attachment:
nut issue.png


I would also like to se the curved fillet wings near the nut tapered at a back angle toward the pegheat but this is no biggie.



I blew up the photo to the full scale i.e. the fretboard = 1/4" thick. and iserted it into a cad file and traced the fretboard and nut relationship and measured it. if the intersection of the nut with the top of the fretboard is the proper didtance from the first fret, then the top of the nut is .010" longer than the scale length should be. If the bottom intersection of the fretboard and the nut is at the correct length from the first fret the the the top of the nut is .05" to long. In any case you are headed for some rework or intonation issues.
Attachment:
nut issue2.png
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
No matter what angle a photo is taken at with two parallel plans that can be measured to be equal distances apart in multiple locations on the photo, you can with out question define a perpendicular plane to those plans. In this case the top edge and bottom edge of the Fretboard binding or fretboard is near enough true parallel the full length.

With this in mind and after studding the photo very close I can deduct with a reasonable amount of assurance that the fretboard binding is cut at a non perpendicular angle to the fretboard plane where it meets the nut. Thereby I am assuming the fretboard is as well and this is in part one of the nut fit up problems.

Now this does not necessarily tell me anything about the nut as its plans is too short to proof positive but I do know that at least the FB binding edge is skewed.

Not meaning to be a nit picker on you Christen but this better to find now than having to figure it out during intonation and realize the Fretboard is off and you will have to make a special nut.
Author:  Chansen [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
MichaelP wrote:
I blew up the photo to the full scale i.e. the fretboard = 1/4" thick. and iserted it into a cad file and traced the fretboard and nut relationship and measured it. if the intersection of the nut with the top of the fretboard is the proper didtance from the first fret, then the top of the nut is .010" longer than the scale length should be. If the bottom intersection of the fretboard and the nut is at the correct length from the first fret the the the top of the nut is .05" to long. In any case you are headed for some rework or intonation issues.


Wow Michael, thanks for the in-depth look here! Ok, so if the picture is not deceiving us (I will verify tonight) what is the best solution for either situation? If this is correct I would assume that my mistake may have been in cleaning out the slot I undercut the fretboard - causing a lengthening of .010" rather than .050" because I am confident the (top) end of the fretboard is the correct distance from the first fret. It seems the only solution would be to keep the angle as-is but shave .010" to compensate the unfortunate angle. Correct or not so much?
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Chansen wrote:
MichaelP wrote:
I blew up the photo to the full scale i.e. the fretboard = 1/4" thick. and iserted it into a cad file and traced the fretboard and nut relationship and measured it. if the intersection of the nut with the top of the fretboard is the proper didtance from the first fret, then the top of the nut is .010" longer than the scale length should be. If the bottom intersection of the fretboard and the nut is at the correct length from the first fret the the the top of the nut is .05" to long. In any case you are headed for some rework or intonation issues.


Wow Michael, thanks for the in-depth look here! Ok, so if the picture is not deceiving us (I will verify tonight) what is the best solution for either situation? If this is correct I would assume that my mistake may have been in cleaning out the slot I undercut the fretboard - causing a lengthening of .010" rather than .050" because I am confident the (top) end of the fretboard is the correct distance from the first fret. It seems the only solution would be to keep the angle as-is but shave .010" to compensate the unfortunate angle. Correct or not so much?


First you need to find out the distance from the top of the fretboard to the first fret along the centerline of the fretboard and if indeed the nut edge of the fretboard is under cut at an angle and what angle. In short we want to square up that edge of the fretboard at the proper distance from the first fret.
Author:  David Collins [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
Friends are always supposed to be honest, right. ;)

That said, there are a few things that don't quite work for me. Keep in mind these are my personal preferences, and not intended to criticize your own.

First, the end looks a bit short. The tuners are too close to the top for me, leaving me with the impression of it being a bit squashed or chopped a bit too far in. I suppose I could warm up to it, but it caught my attention right off the bat, honestly in a bit of an unfavorable way. Maybe it wouldn't look as odd to me if the top was narrower, or maybe I've just been working on too many Epiphones lately. ;)

Second, I don't care for tuners turned to follow the curve. It looks to be only the bottom two that are really rotated though, so maybe they just shifted in the photo? Shafts perpendicular to the center line is how I like them. Actually, the orientation of the tuners in the photo make it a bit tough to get a clear view of the aesthetics in the photos, so between that and the camera angle there may be some optical illusion that is throwing me off. Which brings me to -

Third, it looks like the sides actually reverse their curve right at the bottom, just past the e's. I may actually really like this little flare, but I'm not sure yet.

And again with the camera angle, tuners and grain of the veneer, it's tough for me to really see it. There are spots that have the look of inconsistent or unintentional curves, but when I look closely I think it may be some illusion throwing me off.

Since everyone else is already touching on the functional parts, I'll just take it upon myself to criticize the aesthetics. :D Really though, it looks great - these are just little details of my personal tastes. Nothing that would effect this guitar, but might be food for thought if the style is still in development.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
laughing6-hehe we are writting at the same time.

Assuming the fret boart length is good at the top you will need a wedge to bring the under cut back to square. this will likly be a two sep process glue in the insert adn cut to perpendicular to the fretboard plane. so the wedge sould be longer than needed.

A tip for the future is I use flat non tapered nuts and fit them on the flat of the section of the neck this in your case would push the fretboard down a 1/4" or 3/8" depending on the width of nut and plan the peghead veneer to under cut on the nut end to but out against the nut, I account for this extra length in my neck length, but even if you don't It just means the 14th is inboard of the joint and the saddle is one nut distance further back which is only a slight cosmetic issue in the whole scheme of things.

This type of set-up requires no nut slot filing but if you want you can add a nut slot a 1/32 to 1/16” deep dependent on the truss rod configuration, the nut width wide at the start of the neck flat plane and make it on the table saw perfectly square to the that plane.
This rally makes setting the fretboard and nut flush easy.
Author:  Chansen [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Headstock preview and a couple questions
David Collins wrote:

First, the end looks a bit short. The tuners are too close to the top for me, leaving me with the impression of it being a bit squashed or chopped a bit too far in.


Yes, it is a bit shorter than I would have liked. Seemed to work well on paper, but in real-time it doesn't work that well. I wasn't planing on doing any inlay save maybe a single letter "C"... Do you think that would worsen the effect or help?

David Collins wrote:
Second, I don't care for tuners turned to follow the curve. It looks to be only the bottom two that are really rotated though, so maybe they just shifted in the photo?


You are correct, the bottom tuners are set at a slight angle due to the placement of the holes against the angle. To straighten them out I would need to a) move the hole inward or b) alter the plate of the tuner. Neither seem like good alternatives to the situation.

David Collins wrote:
Third, it looks like the sides actually reverse their curve right at the bottom, just past the e's. I may actually really like this little flare, but I'm not sure yet.


Correct again... but this little "S" curve was intentional and I think I kind of like it.

By all means I appreciate the feedback on the aesthetics of the design. I plan on making some changes to it in the future. Thanks for the input.
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