| Official Luthiers Forum! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| I need some advice on lacquer finishes http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16948 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | John Kinnaird jr [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
I still finish my guitar necks, though Tony does the body. I am using McFaddens nitro with a z-poxy pore filler. I put two coats of z-poxy on the neck, sanding between coats. I sand the last coat with 220 and then spray nitro over that. My problem is that when working around the nut area, or fine fitting the neck which never seems to fit as well after the body is finished as it did before the body was finished, or when pressing in Waverly tuner bearings, I get delamination in those areas. It drives me nuts. I spend way too much time dealing with those pesky delams and feel sure that no one else has that problem. What do you guys do to avoid those problems? Is my finishing schedule awry. Do I need to use vinyl sealer over the epoxy? I get the same thing when spraying over a shellac seal coat. |
|
| Author: | Bob Long [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
John... I drill for tuners after finish, and in the past have had problems with delams around the holes. Since I've switched to, Z-Poxy - vinyl sealer - nitro... I haven't had a problem there. long |
|
| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
I've had exactly the same issues with oil varnish, also drove me insane… It may not be the only reason but sanding the wood with too fine a grit before applying the sealer coats (shellac for me) didn't help. Stopping at 220 or 240 with fresh paper seems to help. May not apply to your problem though… I very slightly countersink the tuner holes to avoid delams there, avoids a sharp edge and gets filled with finish anyway. I also chamfer the FB edge slightly as adhesion with ebony is the worst, but I fret after assembly so it all gets cleaned up levelling the FB. |
|
| Author: | Brad T [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
John, I use McFadden's vinyl sealer over the Zpoxy, and then their nitro and have had no issues. I do sand the epoxy to the pores, though. I did have those issues when I used sanding sealer, but the problem went away after making the switch to vinyl. I had one incident where a customer dropped his guitar out of its case, and it took a skidding impact, leaving impact marks in the finish on the top. The thing had spots of chipped out lacquer, but it did not delaminate. The vinyl seems to be some good stuff. I have found that the best way to sand it prior to the nitro is to use the Fre-Cut gold open coat, as it is the least prone to loading and does a great job, although it wears pretty quickly. hope this helps |
|
| Author: | John Kinnaird jr [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
Thanks guys This does indeed help. I was afraid that vinyl sealer was what was needed. I hate the stuff, but I hate delams more. Any other suggestions to help me avoid the vinyl? Laurent, if oil varnish delams as well, where is the hope? John |
|
| Author: | Brad T [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
I've heard a lot of people say they hate it, but I love it. I wasn't too fond of having to sand the stuff, because it clogged up my sandpaper, sanded poorly, etc but the fre cut stuff really takes a lot of that out of the equation. The only other thing I see is that it doesn't fill imperfections/pores worth a hoot, but I'm willing to deal with that instead of the delams. It doesn't sand like the sanding sealer, though! ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad")
|
|
| Author: | Bob Long [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
I don't sand the vinyl... other than just a scuff sanding between the vinyl coat and the nitro coats. Just 1 or 2 coats of vinyl then nitro. long |
|
| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
John Kinnaird jr wrote: I still finish my guitar necks, though Tony does the body. I am using McFaddens nitro with a z-poxy pore filler. I put two coats of z-poxy on the neck, sanding between coats. I sand the last coat with 220 and then spray nitro over that. My problem is that when working around the nut area, or fine fitting the neck which never seems to fit as well after the body is finished as it did before the body was finished, or when pressing in Waverly tuner bearings, I get delamination in those areas. It drives me nuts. I spend way too much time dealing with those pesky delams and feel sure that no one else has that problem. What do you guys do to avoid those problems? Is my finishing schedule awry. Do I need to use vinyl sealer over the epoxy? I get the same thing when spraying over a shellac seal coat. Hi John, I thought it was just me!! I had a rash of them on the last one I built-gotta love nitro!! I use regular sanding sealer before the nitro. I might try switching to shellac as a base coat. |
|
| Author: | John Kinnaird jr [ Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
Brad It is comforting to know I am not alone with this problem. Have you ever used the vinyl sealer under the nitro? I have tried shellac and still get some delamination problems at the edges. When I get a problem area I pry up the lacquer in those areas with a thin knife and flow a little CA under the delaminated area and then press it back down and it usually works, but then there is always a small mess to clean up. I know Martin and Co don't do it that way. Looking for answers John |
|
| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
John Kinnaird jr wrote: Laurent, if oil varnish delams as well, where is the hope? I'm tempted to say nowhere… But I'm more optimistic than that. I've only used nitro to refinish maybe 5/6 guitars so I'm not experienced there, but I've always thought the stuff was much more forgiving than an oil varnish such as Rockhard. Actually I've not had delamination issues per say, but rather adhesion issues that probably have more to do with the substrate (the finish lifts in one big layer rather than subsequent layer "flakes", which I saw happen with nitro). |
|
| Author: | Dave Anderson [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
Hmmm, I use the same,Z-poxy and nitro and have not had any problems with delams .I have been sanding down to the pores and spraying nitro next. After reading these posts though maybe I should start using vinyl sealer . I don't like the stuff either but maybe it will prevent some future issues eh? Good luck with your delams John,It sounds like the vinyl is the answer to your woes. |
|
| Author: | John Kinnaird jr [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
Thanks for your shared experiences guys. Looks like I am doomed to vinyl. Whatever it takes to get the good adherance John |
|
| Author: | James Orr [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
How many coats of the vinyl do you guys shoot? It's nice to learn about another process. |
|
| Author: | John Kinnaird jr [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I need some advice on lacquer finishes |
But it really smells vile, and this from a person who likes the odor of nitro. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|