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Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
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Author:  Guest [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Hello all,
gaah I am in the process of deciding what type of non-sprayed finish to put on my first guitar. (yes this thread is inspired by the one furthur down). It is the acoustic-electric that is finally done [:Y:] !.....well except the installation of the bridge after finishing, fret level and recrown, and final set up. I do not have spray equipment and wanted the following:

-non-grain filled look
-non- sprayed (already said that huh?)
-be amber in color and be able to bring out figure in wood if there is any
-satin (but if the system works well can be gloss for other builds)
-be able to be padded on or brushed on
-will burn into the previous coat
-scratch or abraison resistant ...not bullet proof but not raw wood.....my test is to take a pick and rub it for several stroks to see if it makes a mark....see if it has pick tracks.....no I am not pound it just normal stroks
-can be repaired if need be
-do not want to get into a space suit to apply it

I have tried the following on test pannels (all sanded well to 220 prior to application):

-shellac (seal coat)
I padded and brushed with good results. It is gloss but I could rub to satin if needed. Will brun in to previous coats. Makes the wood look good. Fumes did not make me sick. Let set for a week. Not very scratch resistant to my test.

-shellac (seal coat) with Target USL satin
I padded 3 coats of shellac and sanded with 220. I padded and brushed the USL at ~5% reduced with water with good results(no streaks or pools or general problems). Does burn in to previous coats. It is satin, had a very slight amber color, and makes the wood look good. Fumes did not make me sick. Let set for a week. Better scratch resistant than just schellac but did show "pick tracks" upon my test.

-Tru-oil
Padded per the directions. Has darker amber color than the others and makes the wood look good. Is satin when sanded to the grit I want or steel wool. Does not burn in to previous coats. Fumes did not make me sick. Let set for a week. Not very scratch resistant either.....pick tracks.


These are the ones I have tried so far. I do not expect to have a bullet proof finish I understand that things will happen and I fully will use this guitar and it not be just a wall hanger. I just want some protection from everyday playing.

Is this a pipe dream? I have yet to try polyurathanes or short oil varnishes......minwax, pratt and lambert, rockhard. They do not have the burn in properties that is why I have not gone there first. I am willing to try padding laquer if that has worked well in your experiences because I do have a respirator......I was trying to stay away from it though.

Am I missing the boat here or being to picky on the abraision issue.

Thanks for any advice/help/guidance....comments....etc.

Eat Drink
Author:  Matthew Bryan [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Must have logged me out upon the long winded typing.....I posted it. Sorry
Author:  David R White [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Matthew, I am planning to try shellac on my next instrument having previously used KTM9, and have been doing some testing. It seems to me that shellac continues to harden much beyond a week and is much more scratch resistant after a month. I would go back and check your samples again in a few weeks, your opinion may change.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
If you do not want to go to sprayed Nitro or farm out a cat poly finish then YES you are likely being picky on the abrasion issue. It is wood finish not body armor. Plus you are looking at your test pieces through the eyes of and at the output of an inexperienced finisher, What I am saying is your test results are not likley to be the highest examples of what the media can provide.

Here is the deal shellac is very scratch resistant. Depending on the application and the experience of the finisher. To some degree the same could be said true-oil, spirit varnish. So forth and so on.

If you are looking to find a finish straight out of a can that a inexperienced instrument finisher can apply and be tough as nails, automatically provide a satin finish and have all the best attributes of the common finishes and none of the lesser attributes. I am sorry to tell you that no magic bullet exists.

I am a nearly 40 year French polisher; and i am here to tell you that with experience and persistence in refining your technique; Shellac will provide a nice hard finish. It is not going to happen your first time or your tenth time out you need to learn how the shellac builds and the proper process application techniques beyond the point of a general understanding to the point of experienced understanding.

All other finishes possess similar potential as well. Each has good attributes and each has attributes that are less desirable.

What I read from your post is you really want it a hard finish but don’t want to invest much in to it. Be it time or money.

Im not trying to come down on you but rather give realistic insight and frank truth to help you weigh your options and decide what finish media to use.

Outside of French polished shellac you might conceder padding on Belhen’s Rockhard Table top finish or even nitrocellulose lacquer. But you will have to create the satin look via steel wool and paste wax for best satin look.
Author:  Matthew Bryan [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Thanks for the replies. I do appreciate your honesty. That is what I ask for so I can learn. I am willing to put in the time to try and perfect a method. I would like to do it on test boards (like I am currently doing) and not my first guitar. I guess I see the light at the end of the tunnel and want to string her up! As I mentioned I have not tested the short oil resigns nor lacquer yet but they are on the list.

The varnishes I was going to try are Rock hard varnish and the pratt and lambert. The only issues here are the burn in properties......but as you said with experience I can learn to deal with it and get a good finish.

What padding lacquers do you guys recommend? Or ....do you use regular spray lacquer and add thinner and retarder so it can be padded?

Any tips on application of the other materials as well as the ones above you can give me would be appreciated.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Matthew Bryan wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I do appreciate your honesty. That is what I ask for so I can learn. I am willing to put in the time to try and perfect a method. I would like to do it on test boards (like I am currently doing) and not my first guitar. I guess I see the light at the end of the tunnel and want to string her up! As I mentioned I have not tested the short oil resigns nor lacquer yet but they are on the list.

The varnishes I was going to try are Rock hard varnish and the pratt and lambert. The only issues here are the burn in properties......but as you said with experience I can learn to deal with it and get a good finish.

What padding lacquers do you guys recommend? Or ....do you use regular spray lacquer and add thinner and retarder so it can be padded?

Any tips on application of the other materials as well as the ones above you can give me would be appreciated.


Spraying lacquer works fine for paddding but will need a bit of retarder I am not the best lacqure padder but Finewood working magazine had a great artical back about a year ago on padding nitro.

Mcfaddens
Author:  Matthew Bryan [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
I subscribe to that magazine. I will go look at my back issues and see if I can find it.


Anyone else have any comments....methods?

Thanks
Author:  Steve Saville [ Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Use a shellac as a seal coat to get your amber look. Follow it up with Crystalac. Use their super premium satin.
It is available here.
It seems to fit all your requirements. It burns in nicely, you can even add amber dye to it.
I think it is harder than the Target product. I have used it on 3 or 4 guitars and have been real happy with it.
Author:  Alain Desforges [ Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Maybe you could try applying a nitro with one of those sponge type brushes. You might give yourself a bit more sanding in the end, but it will be a nice tough finish. Much more tenaciouis than shellac; at least right out of the gate, so to speak...
Author:  Matthew Bryan [ Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
SteveS,
Can you pad the super premium product....or brush it? I do have a relly cheap airbrush that I can use if needed.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
For what it's worth from a novice:

I've been testing a few finishes lately trying to decide what to put on guitar number 7. On previous guitars I've used Deft lacquer, KTM-9 and French polished shellac. I've been testing on scrap: Tru-oil, Target Coatings Ultima Spray Lacquer and Minwax Wipe-On Polyurethane.

Unless I can do it outside, I won't use NC lacquer again. I won't ever use KTM-9 again - too soft and not clear enough (I wanted this stuff to work so badly I tried it on four guitars).

French polished shellac is really nice but quite a bit of work. After the KTM-9 it seemed relatively hard to me too. I will definitely do more guitars French polished.

I like the Tru-oil. It's easy to apply. I can see why people put it on necks. It feels fast under a thumb.

So far, the Target Coatings Ultima Spray Lacquer seems far superior to KTM-9. After only one day of testing, already the stuff seems harder and clearer than KTM-9 after two weeks of curing. My hopes for a water based lacquer type finish are starting to go up again. I'll probably end up using it on this guitar (possibly with Tru-oil on the neck). I'm having a hard time deciding between this and the minwax polyurethane.

I've not seen too many people recommend Minwax Wipe-On Polyurethane (Robbie O'Brien does on his finishing DVD) but I have to say, on my test boards the stuff looks pretty darn good. Appearance wise, it doesn't look a whole lot different than the other finishes I've been testing. Also, it's very easy to apply and it's very hard. It would probably pass your pick scratch tests (in fact, in my view, this finish comes closest to what you seem to want so I recommend that you at least try testing it on some scrap).

Oh yeah, all the test I've been doing lately have been on boards which have been pore filled with the Target Coatings pore filler. Works good but it took me 7 coats to get all the pores filled.

Pat
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Pat Hawley wrote:

Unless I can do it outside, I won't use NC lacquer again. I won't ever use KTM-9 again - too soft and not clear enough (I wanted this stuff to work so badly I tried it on four guitars).

Pat


Pat I have heard these complaints about KTM9 so many times but I have used it for 4 years It is very clear. I don't know if this is an environmental issue with you guys or what. But I never have clarity issues. No it is not as hard as Nitro. But it does not chip as nitro will either. I do not like the KTM9 satin it is not clear, but it is not intended to be.

Maybe I am luck being in a dryer environment. But it works well for me. it is not nitro but it has been more durable than many give it credit for, or at least has been for me.
Author:  KMartin [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
I have also had good results with KTM9 with several caveats: It's easy to sand through to bare wood when leveling, and it continues to shrink and harden over a period of several months. I have been spraying it on. The durability is quite acceptable. My first guitar was finished with a previous version, KTM4, brushed on, and the finish has not degraded in 7 years, except for minor dings from banging against furniture. :(

The shrinkage of water-born lacquers can be exploited, allowing a thin final finish with the wood grain printing through if desired. I know there are lots of detractors to these finishes, but I'm a do-it-yourself type, finishing a low number of instruments, who has no desire to expose myself to the hazards of nitro, etc. As others wrote, there are no magic bullets.
Author:  Doctor Jeff [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
What about ColorTone's brush-on water-based finish? Anyone have any experience with this?

I'm in the same boat as others--don't have spray equipment, don't plan on making lots of guitars regularly.
Author:  Guest [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Frustrated finisher looking for guidance
Doctor Jeff wrote:
What about ColorTone's brush-on water-based finish? Anyone have any experience with this?

I'm in the same boat as others--don't have spray equipment, don't plan on making lots of guitars regularly.


Colortone is Stewmac name for Targe USL. It is a good waterborne acrylic, but my experiance with it is that it leaves a slight blueish tint to the film. KTM9 is much closer to true clear
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