There is no such thing as "the perfect action".
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| In search of the perfect Action! http://w-ww.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16967 |
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| Author: | Jeremy Knight [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | In search of the perfect Action! |
I have been building steel string acoustics for many years now, and I am still trying to figure out how to get the "perfect action" on my guitars. I often seem to go in circles for days trying to get the string action as low as possible and I wonder if I'm trying to get it too low. Here's the questions I would like to pose to everyone: 1) What 12th fret string heights do you consider "Average action", and what height would you consider "low (but reasonable) action"? 2) In your experience what is/are some of the most important factors (like relief, neck angle, etc.) in attaining the best possible string action? Jeremy |
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| Author: | grumpy [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
There is no such thing as "the perfect action".
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| Author: | Brett L Faust [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Perfect for what? |
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| Author: | Jeremy Knight [ Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Brett L Faust wrote: Perfect for what? Yeah, I know that a guitar's optimum setup depends on a the player's preference and style. So, I guess I'm wondering what you would consider a good low action for a finger-style guitar. It's easy to raise a guitar's action if needed. So I want to make sure that the guitars that I build will play well at a low action first and then raise it if necessary. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
I usually do the initial setup of my OMs at around 0.093 low and 0.070 high E. I've been surprised that the several highly experienced professional players I've built for wanted it higher. I remember a Frank Ford story somewhere about a repairperson that quit the business because of all the difficult types he had to deal with. Got a job in a mental health facility and when he went into the room of his first patient to ask what he could do for them the answer was "could you lower my action?" Terry |
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| Author: | Guest [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Jeremy I understand your question and have the same concern. 3/32 at the 12th fret is my goal, however from the 12th fret can vary based on the neck angle to body. So what is the ideal string height at the 20th fret, for easy of playability without buzzing. John |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Terence Kennedy wrote: I usually do the initial setup of my OMs at around 0.093 low and 0.070 high E. I've been surprised that the several highly experienced professional players I've built for wanted it higher. I remember a Frank Ford story somewhere about a repairperson that quit the business because of all the difficult types he had to deal with. Got a job in a mental health facility and when he went into the room of his first patient to ask what he could do for them the answer was "could you lower my action?" Terry Excellent Terry!  There was an article on Buffalo Bros web site written by the head of the repair department that addressed, in advance, this notion that players need very low action. If I recall correctly he dispelled this notion and provided some reasons why guitar action on acoustics needs to be higher then say electrics. Toward the end of the article he advised players to stop complaining about action and learn how to play the guitar...... Complaints about poor action seem to be common. |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Terence Kennedy wrote: I usually do the initial setup of my OMs at around 0.093 low and 0.070 high E. I've been surprised that the several highly experienced professional players I've built for wanted it higher. Maybe they want to exploit the guitar's dynamics to the full rather than play it like an electric. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
To an extent, with higher action comes longer sustain and the ability to have a stronger attack. A lot of blues and jazz players prefer stiffer (higher) actions. A lot of jazz players don't like any relief in the neck, either. I remember sitting in one of my first lessons with Rich Severson in college. He took my guitar, tweaked the truss rod, and said, "you always want this to be as straight as possible when you play this stuff." |
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| Author: | SniderMike [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Guest wrote: 3/32 at the 12th fret is my goal, however from the 12th fret can vary based on the neck angle to body. So what is the ideal string height at the 20th fret, for easy of playability without buzzing. John ??? This makes no sense to me. You should be setting the action by means of saddle height and truss rod; not leaving it to random chance. Nobody I know of measures action at the 20th fret. |
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| Author: | Jeremy Knight [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Guest wrote: Jeremy I understand your question and have the same concern. 3/32 at the 12th fret is my goal, however from the 12th fret can vary based on the neck angle to body. So what is the ideal string height at the 20th fret, for easy of playability without buzzing. John John, That's an interesting thought. I've never though of measuring at the 20th fret, but this sounds like a good thing to do because a lot of fret buzzes problems seem to occur between the 12th and 20th fret. Thanks, Jeremy |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Personally I like 5/64" to 1/16" at the 12th fret from big E to small E for fingerstyle. Maybe that's too low for some but for me it feels nice. I wasn't able to get that low without buzzing until I started building my fingerboards with a compound radius. |
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| Author: | Jeremy Knight [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Dave White wrote: Terence Kennedy wrote: I usually do the initial setup of my OMs at around 0.093 low and 0.070 high E. I've been surprised that the several highly experienced professional players I've built for wanted it higher. Maybe they want to exploit the guitar's dynamics to the full rather than play it like an electric. Good Point. While a nice handmade acoustic guitar should be more responsive to a light touch at low action, a low action can limit what a player can get out of the guitar. |
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| Author: | SniderMike [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Sounds like maybe you should make sure you're getting your fingerboards and frets nice and level. That is really the first step in achieving low action. Then make nut all perfect, then adjust truss rod for correct relief, then adjust saddle height for suitable action. Then shred to heart's content. |
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| Author: | boboreilly [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
grumpy wrote: There is no such thing as "the perfect action". Maybe not for a builder... but for a player? I can assure you there is. 
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| Author: | Wes McMillian [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
boboreilly wrote: grumpy wrote: There is no such thing as "the perfect action". Maybe not for a builder... but for a player? I can assure you there is. I think that's precisely Grumpy's point, Bob. You have what you consider "perfect" action for your style and attack, someone else has theirs. I assure you a delicate fingerstyle player would hate any of my guitars and I couldn't play theirs without buzzing. So who's wrong? Nobody can give a "formula" for perfect action to another individual, they can only give their own preference which may or may not work for the other person. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
westex93 wrote: delicate fingerstyle player Most finger pickers I know have just as an aggressive of attack if not more so than most flat picker I know. They have to if they want to be heard... you see, they don't have the advantage of a big hunking picking prosthesis to help them rattle the strings.
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| Author: | Dave White [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
MichaelP wrote: westex93 wrote: delicate fingerstyle player Most finger pickers I know have just as an aggressive of attack if not more so than most flat picker I know. They have to if they want to be heard... you see, they don't have the advantage of a big hunking picking prosthesis to help them rattle the strings. If you play with acrylic (or other synthetic) nails then you have three "hunking picking prostheses" plus an optional thumbpick. You can also use your index finger nail as a very effective flatpick. |
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| Author: | Jeremy Knight [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
SniderMike wrote: Sounds like maybe you should make sure you're getting your fingerboards and frets nice and level. That is really the first step in achieving low action. Then make nut all perfect, then adjust truss rod for correct relief, then adjust saddle height for suitable action. Then shred to heart's content. It is my understanding that a lower action needs more relief and a higher action needs less relief. Is this correct? |
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| Author: | Wes McMillian [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
OK, OK, I got ya. Notice, I didn't say "all fingerstyle players" but "delicate fingerstyle players". They do exist. So, OK, I recant. Let's set 'em all up with bluegrass action. It doesn't matter. 
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Dave White wrote: MichaelP wrote: westex93 wrote: delicate fingerstyle player Most finger pickers I know have just as an aggressive of attack if not more so than most flat picker I know. They have to if they want to be heard... you see, they don't have the advantage of a big hunking picking to help them rattle the strings. If you play with acrylic (or other synthetic) nails then you have three "hunking picking prostheses" plus an optional thumbpick. You can also use your index finger nail as a very effective flatpick. Ahaaa!!!! but tone comes from the skin, twang from the nails My nails are fortunatly rock hard but they are no prosthesis
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| Author: | fryovanni [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Jeremy Knight wrote: SniderMike wrote: Sounds like maybe you should make sure you're getting your fingerboards and frets nice and level. That is really the first step in achieving low action. Then make nut all perfect, then adjust truss rod for correct relief, then adjust saddle height for suitable action. Then shred to heart's content. It is my understanding that a lower action needs more relief and a higher action needs less relief. Is this correct? No. Not really. If everything(clearance at the first fret, and action at 12) is set back to the same point it was at before adding relief, there is a little clearance gained and some clearance lost depending on where you fret the string on the neck. |
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| Author: | Rvsgtr [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
Quote: So what is the ideal string height at the 20th fret, for easy of playability without buzzing. okay so what is this thing everybody's calling the 20th fret. Is that like a real fret?  I thought there were only 14 Seriously though, don't really get down there too much, this action thing has caused me many a headache. Everybody wants it like Tony Rice's and no buzzing. That is almost impossible since he keeps his down around 4.5 64th big E and 3.5-4.0 64ths little E and little or no relief I think. The only way it ain't gonna buzz with me is if I don't play it. I have built one guitar for a professional bluegrass guitarist who is really good and his is 7 64ths to 5.5 64ths and he's happy. Get it like you like it and don't worry about what others think. I have a buddy who won't play my personal guitar because its too high at 6 64ths to 5 64ths. Go figure. I like just a little relief which I measure without a caliper or guage, just the strings and my fingers and otherwise get the action close to what I want at the saddle and painstakingly bring down the nut action til I'm happy. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
 Let's discuss the perfect way to cook food. No, maybe that's too broad a topic. How about the perfect way to cook meat. There has to be a simple answer.
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: In search of the perfect Action! |
The perfect way to cook meat is rare. Perfect action is very rare. Poor action isn't well done. Strings are often best medium. |
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