Official Luthiers Forum!

Greetings to all. By way of introduction, I grew up in Chattanooga but now call La Crosse WI home. I'm a physician during my day job but at night I pretend I'm Norm Abram and Joe Pass--not at the same time of course.

I love all kinds of music and try to play some of them--mainly fingerstyle music, especially jazz standards. (The Real Book and I are very close friends...) My axes of choice right now are an Alvarez acoustic-electric RC20SC (has a narrow neck that's great for jazz chordings, not so great for classical arpeggios) and an Epiphone Joe Pass in blonde. Both are beautiful guitars that are perfectly finished and set up, and joys to play.

Woodworking has been a hobby of mine for a couple of years and now I am looking to expand into instrument making. I made a classical guitar from a very basic kit recently and was hooked. I'd like to start on steel string flattop guitars but move into archtop and electric guitars eventually.

Here's the question: should I start with a quality kit from Stew-Mac or Martin or LMI, or build it myself from scratch? I am a pretty experienced woodworker and not worried about routing channels, cutting, shaping braces, etc., even shaping necks. However, I don't have any bending equipment. So I could get sides prebent, or get an iron and learn to bend them myself. In the long run this is probably the best option.

Did I mention I'm a cheapskate? I'd prefer not to blow many hundreds of dollars on something until I sort of have it down and am convinced it's something I want to spend hours and hours doing.

So, I'm curious to get your perspectives on what my next step should be.

Thanks in advance for your support!

Oh, BTW my name is Jeff and my username is Doctor Jeff. As a forum newbie, I somehow screwed up and posted the message without my username.

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Without music life would be a mistake.

~Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Well Doc welcome to the OLF!

This is a question that there are as may answers as there are members here..... I generally suggest to people that a kit has advantages over a scratch build for your first. But your excellent description of your wood working chops and mentioning that you are, in your own words, a cheap skate, I think that you could go either way.

Regardless of if you start with a kit or from scratch you may want to purchase your sides pre-bent. Blues Creek (link above) and a sponsor will sell you excellent kits customized as you wish and pre-bent sides are available from Blues Creek too.

RC Tonewoods, we affectionately call him Uncle Bob or the Zootman, has a superb selection of beautiful tonewood and I believe that he will bend your sides and perhaps thickness the plates too. Uncle Bob, RC Tonewoods has a link above too.

Some food for thought - Since you are not inclined to spend a lot now not knowing in advance if this is for you consider that a kit might just provide you with a more enjoyable experience AND a reduction in some of the specialized tools that you will need. If building from scratch I doubt if you will save a dime since you will have to do all the operations yourself and need to tool up for that which is costly too.

Either way, and my point is, if what is most important to you is learning if guitar building will be something that you love to do - do what ever you need to do to ensure that you have the most positive experiences. I also know that this does not help much but you are a case that would probably succeed either way.

Welcome to the OLF.

First of all, welcome to the forum Doc!

Getting a "serviced" kit from one of the sponsors you listed is a good thing to avoid the expense of buying bending equipment. I would like to throw another name in the hat for these kits, which is Blues Creek Guitars. John will give you a well serviced kit which will save you loads of time and expense and the wood he uses is top of the line too. I'm sure you will find the prices comparable to the other two companies too.

If you plan on only building a few (or one) acoustic guitars, then this is definitely the way to go. I'm sure that you will find that quite a few of us started out with kits and you can certainly build a good quality guitar with one.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Hi Jeff - thanks for your name.

i don't know what the pros will say, but...

i built a martin kit and then one of my own... ordered from lmi. i bent the sides on this last one. i was very happy that i bent my own sides, as it allowed me to give my guitar a distinctive shape.

i used a modified version of the lightbulb bending jig described by Jim Williams in A Guitar Maker's Manual

i'm attaching a photo of the one i made using about a quarter sheet of baltic birch plywood and a couple of aluminum rods from home depot.

if you're still nervous, stewmac will sell you practice wood.

...and a link to the end result, if you care.

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_____a_____d_____a_____m_____k_____a_____y_____

yakmatter.com

Is there a doctor in the house?

Welcome Dr. Jeff!

As an aspiring builder... i.e., some months from having the shop time to build, I have been collecting stuff for building. This forum can bring on several debilitating 'syndromes' such as W.A.S. (wood acqusition syndrome), T.A.S. (tools) and it seems as if you already have the last, G.A.S. (guitar acquisition syndrome).

So, beware of us here... we may cause friction in your family!

With your mentioned previous woodworking experience I agree with Hesh and Ken that a seviced kit form one of the afore mentioned suppliers would be the best. A supplier that will work with you on selecting the woods, bindings, necks, tuners, braceing, etc. is the best route.

Best wishes and don't forget the digital camera to document the process for us.

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

Dr. Jeff,
Welcome to the OLF! I started building about 4 years ago and had no woodworking experience at all, and I built my first from scratch. I actually bought the parts from ebay and LMI all seperately. This allowed me to build with all the options I wanted. Since then, LMI has the kit wizard, so I would probably do that if I was to build a kit these days. If you build from scratch, you will need some dishes, a mold, a side bender and a heating blanket, or pipe. The mold and side bender can be made yourself pretty cheap. If you get Robert O'Brien's DVD on guitar building from LMI, it will show you how to make a side bender and mold. But you will definitely spend more if you go the scratch way. Best of luck and ask lots of questions!

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

Hi Jeff,
What worked great for me was building several kits first, then taking a course and going to scratch building. The kits helped me get a lot more out of the course. You will have a lot of challenges even with a kit. A million ways to skin a cat, this was just what worked well for me.
Good Luck
Terry
http://www.kennedyguitars.com

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I"ll add another recommendation for the LMI kit. I built my first guitar from one of their kits and I'm real pleased with how it turned out. It's pretty convenient to get all the pieces in one box.

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53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

Welcome to the forum!

I am a fairly new builder but I have experience building from a kit and from scratch.

I have found that although I can build a guitar from scratch, there are many things that I need to improve upon. I recently decided to go back to building from a kit and got the OOO Stew Mac kit. Since alot of the work has been done I can concentrate on some of the most important cosmetic and playability issues: proper setup for playing including neck angle, dressing the frets, intonation, and getting a comfortable string height for playing. In addition, I can concentrate on fitting the parts together properly (i.e. getting a good neck fit with the sides with no gaps, etc.). I can also concentrate on putting on a good finish.

I will probably then use the LMI kit wizard and gradually do more things myself. You have the option of adding whatever services you want them to do including thicknessing the tops/backs/sides and joining them, bending the sides, bending the binding, buying a premade bridge or making your own, making the neck or getting a neck blank etc... The kit wizard really seems to be a great option for a beginning builder to gradually add new steps to the building process until you are doing the whole thing from scratch.

Good luck and post pictures of your progress.

Welcome to the forum!

I am a fairly new builder but I have experience building from a kit and from scratch.

I have found that although I can build a guitar from scratch, there are many things that I need to improve upon. I recently decided to go back to building from a kit and got the OOO Stew Mac kit. Since alot of the work has been done I can concentrate on some of the most important cosmetic and playability issues: proper setup for playing including neck angle, dressing the frets, intonation, and getting a comfortable string height for playing. In addition, I can concentrate on fitting the parts together properly (i.e. getting a good neck fit with the sides with no gaps, etc.). I can also concentrate on putting on a good finish.

I will probably then use the LMI kit wizard and gradually do more things myself. You have the option of adding whatever services you want them to do including thicknessing the tops/backs/sides and joining them, bending the sides, bending the binding, buying a premade bridge or making your own, making the neck or getting a neck blank etc... The kit wizard really seems to be a great option for a beginning builder to gradually add new steps to the building process until you are doing the whole thing from scratch.

Good luck and post pictures of your progress.

If you are as self described a cheapskate, buy a serviced kit. Build one or however many want, cuz there is nothing cheap building by scratch. Buying the stuff even from sponsers that are pre thicknessed, bent, etc is a kit anyway.

Wish I could take credit for it--you can thank my parents! BTW, they originally wanted to name me Lamar, so I'm glad they eventually decided upon Jeff.

Thanks for all the comments. I will probably go the route of getting a kit and having them prebend the sides. I feel pretty comfortable with most other aspects of the woodworking.

Just one other question. Anyone have any experience with Behlen's brush-on waterbased lacquer? I don't have a spray setup and am wondering what kind of results to expect with the brush-on stuff.

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Without music life would be a mistake.

~Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

Jeff my friend you might want to start a new thread regarding the finish - many folks might not see this question down here.

Jeff,
Welcome, and I think you'll be very happy with this forum- some of the most open and
experienced guitar builders around belong (I don't claim experience, but I try to share
as much as I can). I built my first one from an unserviced LMI
kit. It was pretty daunting to open that little, flat box, and try to see a finished guitar
from all the little pieces and flat boards. I spent a lot of money on jigs right up front, so
if you want to avoid that, I'd recommend at least getting the sides bent. That was the
single most expensive tool I had to buy, given that I was an experienced woodworker
with a complete shop (by the way, my bender was from Blues Creek- great quality).
You'll probably have most of the rest of the tools required.

I'll also recommend a private website that gives a lot of information on details of building,
tools, jigs, whats required, etc. That's Kathy Matsushita's website at:

http://home.comcast.net/~kathymatsushita/

She hasn't added a lot in the last year or so, but it's still a very complete description
of building guitars, and the tools needed.

Good luck, enjoy...and it's as addictive a hobby as mentioned above

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Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

I think it would be cool to become a collector of kit guitars, if it were possible. There must be a lot of them out there by now, each with it's own special history. It would be interesting to go into a shop that sold only kit creations....It's a growing guitar phenomenon, that would not fail to be interesting, if just to compare a bunch of them together for evaluation.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

Welcome to the forum Doctor.
I am always amused at people's definiton of scratch build and kit build. IMHO the LMI unserviced kit is a scratch build. You do everything except go out and cut the tree down, slice it to approx thickness and air dry it for a few years. LMI has done that for you. The rest you do on your own. Of course they offer services such as bending your sides for you. This is a viable option if you are on a budget or have the "pucker factor" due to inexperience.
Many have given great advice here. If it were me I would get a "kit" and have some portions serviced. As you gain experience you could then slowly take on some of the serviced portions yourself until gradually you are doing it all yourself. I would then only order the unserviced "kit". Nothing like having all your supplies come in one box from one supplier.
Good luck and Happy Building!

Welcome to the forum Doctor.
I am always amused at people's definiton of scratch build and kit build. IMHO the LMI unserviced kit is a scratch build. You do everything except go out and cut the tree down, slice it to approx thickness and air dry it for a few years. LMI has done that for you. The rest you do on your own. Of course they offer services such as bending your sides for you. This is a viable option if you are on a budget or have the "pucker factor" due to inexperience.
Many have given great advice here. If it were me I would get a "kit" and have some portions serviced. As you gain experience you could then slowly take on some of the serviced portions yourself until gradually you are doing it all yourself. I would then only order the unserviced "kit". Nothing like having all your supplies come in one box from one supplier.
Good luck and Happy Building!

Hi Jeff and Welcome (I'm new as well),

I'm building an OM from the LMI kit. I'm happy with everything but the sides. There's a ton of springback, which is making my life hell because I don't have a bending iron. I put them into a mold as soon as they arrived, etc. They just didn't do a good job.

I'd recommend ordering an LMI kit (they do give you a bit of a discount on each item), but I think you ought to buy or build your own bending iron. I'm going to have to.

Wow. That suprises me. Sides I have gotten from Stew Mac have virtually no springback. You can set the sides down on the plans and it's just about a perfect match.

Robbie is right, an unserviced kit is the same as going out buying all the materials for a build, which we all have to do anyway.

I was only referring myself to the serviced kit and best way to go if not wanting to spend alot of money on things needed to do it. Again the ability to do things like bending, making to thickness, molds and all the other stuff makes an unserviced kit great. For those without resources to those things and working to gain building ability of an instrument, the "KIT" serviced is a fine resource. Saves money and time. I would think though in time if this is what you want to do as a hobby or try to sell, one may want to make the investments of things needed to go scratch building and start by moving into the serviced materials bundle, or just buy all the raw stuff and go scratch


Heck I have done it just for having all the stuff come in a box I would have to buy anyway. I have though "upgraded" to different tone woods. Due to moving and setting up new shop (after working in others shops) I don't have a bunch or build up of materials in inventory . That of course will change, but still may purchase the unserviced materials bundle (how is that for change in definition of "kit") at times. On mine they didn't even join the top and back or inlay rosette, it was just all in a box for me to do the work.

If you haven't contacted Chris at LMI with this problem, it would be prudent to do so before denigrating LMI in a public forum. They have always been more than accommodating whenever I had a problem with a product of theirs. I'm sure they'll fix the problem for you.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Welcome Jeff, from another newbie. I am just tooling up for guitar number 2. Number one was done at Vermont Instruments under the guidance of George Morris. I know a lot of people can't give up three weeks of time to do something like this, and if I hadn't had this opportunity, would probably have gone the kit route for number 1. The benefit of going to Vermont was that I ended up with free plans and photos of a great deal of jigs and fixtures - George taught for Charles Fox and helped develop the original Fox Bender for example. I have just finished my bender, am working on Sylvan Wells circle jig for my laminate trimmer today, and am just about ready to start.

You would be welcome to drive down to MadCity and see my set up anytime. It is a work in progress, but I would be happy to share anything.

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Ken Bremer
Madison, Wisconsin
http://www.bremerguitar.blogspot.com

I contacted them. They said some springback is to be expected.

No offense, but what you see as "denigrating," I see as relating my experience. They've been helpful with everything else. Unfortunately, the job they did bending the sides will leave me with an asymmetrical first guitar. I can live with that because I'm building for myself, but I won't have them bend sides again.